Posted on 05/26/2013 3:54:31 AM PDT by NYer
I meant the above post for you, too.
Oops, I meant, I mean the above posts to For America for you, too! (Multi-tasking approach!)
Because Jesus, my Lord, my God, my All, established a Church. Cata-holos. It’s a continuity thing.
"So why do you need a Pope, priest, bishops, etc.?"
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God chose to use people to teach His teachings to others.
God did not NEED to use "Matthew", "Mark", "Luke", "John", "Paul", "Peter", etc. as middlemen to teach you about Jesus. God could have taught each of us directly, not using anyone else at all. However, God CHOSE to use other human beings for that purpose in His Sovereign Holy Omnipotent Will.
YOU and I, however, DO need to use the work of those middlemen God chose in order to learn about Jesus.
(That is the way God wanted it, and chose to do it.)
God set up His Church to continue that same teaching function, and He said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.
It is just like creating new human beings -- God can make human beings (Adam and Eve) without making use of other human beings to do it, but God usually chooses to make use of existing human beings to play a part in bringing other human beings into existence.
Have you noticed that our Protestant antagonists want to keep the discussion and our attention on the hypothetical and away from the real, the physical and the actual? All one need to observe is which form of worship is efficacious. At one end of the spectrum are the many verified and verifiable miracles within Catholic worship and a contrasting paucity within Protestant worship. At the other end of the spectrum is the power of the Church to perform exorcisms and drive out demons where Protestantism takes a more tolerant and head in the sand approach.
I will not argue that God cannot be found in Protestantism or in the hearts of Protestants. Everything good is from God. But with all of that actual proof in contrast with the rhetorical claims of our antagonists I too will continue to worship the Lord Our God and to enjoy the Communion of Saints within the Church Jesus founded upon St. Peter.
Peace be to you.
Why do you need a congregation, a pastor, preacher, minister, choir, seminary, or Bible college? Isn't the bible given you by His Church all you really need?
Pax et bonem
In fact I know scads of splendid Protestants from pro-life and home-schooling cooperation, and they give me an overall assurance of good sense, good will and good cheer. So the more excitable FReeps are, laud tibi Christe, atypical.
Having said that, yeah, I do notice their persistent unease with the whole idea of the Incarnation. They seems to have a decided preference for an invisible God with an invisible Church who saves my invisible soul to be kept incommunicado in invisible heaven forever.
Thin broth.
Needs meatballs.
“I will continue to worship the Lord Our God and to enjoy the Communion of Saints. I will pray that it dawns on you sometime what I’m talking about. And I’ll remember you at Mass this morning.”
I will not have you sin because of me. Do not pray to any created beings on my behalf, since it is idolatry. Pray to God only, and do not ask Him to drive me into idolatry. Rather, say, “I pray that you will bring us to all truth.” In this way, the prayer can still be useful, though the motivation behind the prayer is still problematic. God may, nevertheless, have mercy.
Good post.
I find those that you call “antagonists” frightening. Frightening like all fanatics of all creeds. Frightening in their certainty, which is, to me at least, based on ignorance passing as knowledge, which they base on interpreting obscure passages from the Bible, and frightening in their hostility, no different, I’m afraid, from the hostility of the Islamists, or Leftists. There is no qualitative difference between the fanatical Marxists I have known, and the fanatical antagonists of Catholicism on these pages, they each just use a different “Bible” to support their “unassailable” dogmas.
The problem with American Christianity is that any fool can and does pick up the Bible and declares himself a theologian, and since this is about their Dear Jesus, you are not allowed to question him. And the loudest ones, the Rev. Wrights, the Bakkers, the Crouches and Harold Campings, as well as the anti-Catholic posters here, do everything in their power to persuade us that they are indeed fools.
You are confusing "prayer" with "worship". They are NOT equivalent.
You can USE prayer to worship God, and you can also use singing to worship God, and you can use praise to worship God, and you can use many other things to worship God as well.
But you can also use all of those things for other (non-worship) purposes. For example, you can use praise to tell your kid that the "A" they got was terrific. And you can use singing to tell your Mom "Happy Birthday" by singing "Happy Birthday" to her.
Prayer essentially means a special type of communication, and it can be used to worship God, and can also be used for other purposes as well.
If any of those activities are not done as worship, they are NOT idolatry. To claim that it is is simply not true.
Idolatry? I adore God alone --- but may God keep a good guard on my heart, since I have many faults and weaknesses, prone to wander I know it, and I need His mercy from breath to breath.
But it is impossible for you to think I would not ask other members of the Body of Christ to pray for you: in fact, what an inspiring idea! I will start with my husband, FReeper don-o, and on from there!
"I pray that God will bring us to all truth."
Yes, His mercy is everlasting.
“You are confusing “prayer” with “worship”. They are NOT equivalent.”
To pray to a created being, rather than the creator as taught in scripture, is essentially to give to them the honor of being a savior, a mediator, and a God. It basically says that this person, a spiritual being up in heaven, is capable of hearing your prayers (and every prayer sent to it) from all over the world, which basically makes them, in effect, omnipresent and omniscient. Not only that, but it asserts that they are in greater favor than you are, despite the fact that all believers share in the imputed righteousness of Christ.
God has always told us that we should freely ask of Him directly, and God, in turn, answers freely.
Mat 7:9-11 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? (10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? (11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
It is God who is our stronghold and our help, and we are never commanded to rely upon the works of a creature up in heaven for to have our prayers answered or gain favor with God.
Nah_1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
Notice in that Catholic song I posted earlier, the lyrics to Mary consisted of “You are my strong hold!”
This is nothing more than the chiefest idolatry, even though none will admit it for what it is.
“If any of those activities are not done as worship, they are NOT idolatry. “
From the Litany posted earlier:
“Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of virgins, Mother of the Church, Mother of divine grace, Mother most pure, Mother most chaste, Mother inviolate, Mother undefiled, Mother most amiable, Mother admirable, Mother of good counsel, Mother of mercy, Virgin most prudent, Virgin most powerful, Virgin most merciful, Virgin most faithful, Mirror of justice, Seat of wisdom, Mystical rose, Tower of David, Tower if ivory, Ark of the covenant, Gate of heaven, Morning star, Health of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Comfort of the afflicted, Help of Christians, Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Prophets, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of all Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen assumed into heaven, Queen of the most holy Rosary, Queen of families, Queen of peace.”
So, who is being praised here? The creature, or the creator?
“I will start with my husband, FReeper don-o, and on from there!”
Good for you! And so, without him present, pray to him to pray for me to God, and let’s see if he hears you.
The problem is that they have not humbled themselves before the Lord and acknowledged that there are indeed mysteries that the human mind, specifically their human minds, can never completely rationalize or understand. Mysteries demand faith. Those who insist that what they do not understand cannot be true reject faith. The type of faith spoken of in the Gospel of John, where he used the word "pisteuô" nearly 100 times is not merely an ascent of the mind, it is a belief accepted in spite of the pressures of the world and your own reason to the contrary.
Peace be with you
Please do not project your error into Catholic teaching. Catholics do not worship objects or created beings. Your presumptions and protestations to the contrary only reveal your error.
It is said that Eskimos have many words for snow because snow plays such a role in their lives. Similarly, the French officially recognize 400 distinct types of French cheese grouped into eight categories 'les huit familles de fromage'. Even fly fishermen have many dozens of names for specific types of lures. That you can muster only a single word for prayer tells me all I need to know about your prayer life.
Peace be upon you.
“It is said that Eskimos have many words for snow”
Actually, the Inuit (not “Eskimo”) have exactly two words for now. One for snow in the air, and another for snow in the ground. They simply add on other words to modify it, kind of like “wet snow” in English. It’s these kinds of unthinking generalizations that makes your abuse of prayer and worship possible. We must look to the details, not to what people assert are mysteries which are really just contradictions and fables.
Prayer to a spirit being in heaven is, in every instance, prayer to a deity, since it requires a deity’s powers in order to hear, understand and answer. Furthermore, prayer in the scripture is always to God, and therefore, to pray to a creature is to give to them the honor that God has specifically asked us to give to Him. Mary is not our ‘strong hold’ or our help in heaven. It is God, who asks us to pray to Him freely and unreservedly.
The angels and archangels have no physical ears; and neither do the the saints in glory, whose physical sense organs are turning or have turned to compost; and neither, for that matter, does God our Father and the Holy Spirit, Who have never been embodied beings.
So there are two modes of hearing: by sense organs, and by a spiritual capacity beyond our physical knowing.
You seem to be making a category mistake.
::: Sigh ::::I think I'll send my husband an e-mail.
As for the citizens of heaven: they hear by the capacities proper to their new state of being. Or do you suppose they are locked in padded cells and isolated in eternal deafness?
Even Jesus speaks of Lazarus and Father Abraham hearing the cries of the rich man in torment. Are we to suppose they could hear that, but nothing else?
Please let me know what the Bible verse in my tagline means to you.
Along with not knowing what prayer is, you obviously do not understand what a spirit or a deity is. Please come back when you have acquired the necessary prerequisites for a discussion on these topics.
May God's angels watch over and protect you.
“How does this make sense? My husband is living on this earth, “
Just because Mary is in heaven, doesn’t give to her the divine attributes of being omnipresent and omniscient on Earth, ever ready to run to help the individual who cries out to her. On the contrary, this is the exact role given to God in the scripture. She, like your husband, is still very much limited by what she is... a creature, and not God.
“As for the citizens of heaven: they hear by the capacities proper to their new state of being. Or do you suppose they are locked in padded cells and isolated in eternal deafness?”
I propose that their abilities are not in any way God-like, since there is only one being who can hear the thoughts and prayers of every individual on Earth. Nor is there any reason to go to such an individual in the first place, from the Biblical perspective.
“Even Jesus speaks of Lazarus and Father Abraham hearing the cries of the rich man in torment.”
Evidently they were within crying distance:
Luk 16:23-26 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
And notice also he says to “send Lazarus.” Supposedly, Lazarus does not need to be sent, since he is always mystically present with every Catholic believer, per your tagline.
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