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To: Heart-Rest

“You are confusing “prayer” with “worship”. They are NOT equivalent.”


To pray to a created being, rather than the creator as taught in scripture, is essentially to give to them the honor of being a savior, a mediator, and a God. It basically says that this person, a spiritual being up in heaven, is capable of hearing your prayers (and every prayer sent to it) from all over the world, which basically makes them, in effect, omnipresent and omniscient. Not only that, but it asserts that they are in greater favor than you are, despite the fact that all believers share in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

God has always told us that we should freely ask of Him directly, and God, in turn, answers freely.

Mat 7:9-11 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? (10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? (11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

It is God who is our stronghold and our help, and we are never commanded to rely upon the works of a creature up in heaven for to have our prayers answered or gain favor with God.

Nah_1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

Notice in that Catholic song I posted earlier, the lyrics to Mary consisted of “You are my strong hold!”

This is nothing more than the chiefest idolatry, even though none will admit it for what it is.

“If any of those activities are not done as worship, they are NOT idolatry. “


From the Litany posted earlier:

“Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of virgins, Mother of the Church, Mother of divine grace, Mother most pure, Mother most chaste, Mother inviolate, Mother undefiled, Mother most amiable, Mother admirable, Mother of good counsel, Mother of mercy, Virgin most prudent, Virgin most powerful, Virgin most merciful, Virgin most faithful, Mirror of justice, Seat of wisdom, Mystical rose, Tower of David, Tower if ivory, Ark of the covenant, Gate of heaven, Morning star, Health of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Comfort of the afflicted, Help of Christians, Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Prophets, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of all Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen assumed into heaven, Queen of the most holy Rosary, Queen of families, Queen of peace.”

So, who is being praised here? The creature, or the creator?


173 posted on 05/28/2013 2:51:07 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
"To pray to a created being, rather than the creator as taught in scripture, is essentially to give to them the honor of being a savior, a mediator, and a God. It basically says that this person, a spiritual being up in heaven, is capable of hearing your prayers (and every prayer sent to it) from all over the world, which basically makes them, in effect, omnipresent and omniscient."

Please do not project your error into Catholic teaching. Catholics do not worship objects or created beings. Your presumptions and protestations to the contrary only reveal your error.

It is said that Eskimos have many words for snow because snow plays such a role in their lives. Similarly, the French officially recognize 400 distinct types of French cheese grouped into eight categories 'les huit familles de fromage'. Even fly fishermen have many dozens of names for specific types of lures. That you can muster only a single word for prayer tells me all I need to know about your prayer life.

Peace be upon you.

176 posted on 05/28/2013 3:08:57 PM PDT by Natural Law (Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
" To pray to a created being, rather than the creator as taught in scripture, is essentially to give to them the honor of being a savior, a mediator, and a God. "

No it isn't. Where did you get that idea?

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" It basically says that this person, a spiritual being up in heaven, is capable of hearing your prayers (and every prayer sent to it) from all over the world, which basically makes them, in effect, omnipresent and omniscient. "

No it doesn't. You can only hear ANYTHING AT ALL because God makes it possible for you to hear it. God (who created and controls "time" and "sound") is the Omniscient One, the Omnipresent One, and the Omnipotent One who decides what you can hear, when you can hear it, and how much you can hear. Nothing is impossible for God.

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" Not only that, but it asserts that they are in greater favor than you are, despite the fact that all believers share in the imputed righteousness of Christ. "

No it doesn't. When the Bible tells us to "pray for one another" (James 5:16), it does not say that one or the other is better than the other one. Do you think if those who have overcome and are saved in heaven (such as the thief on the cross who made it to paradise and is with Our Lord) are still able to pray to God or not? If so, can God hear those prayers of that former thief?

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"From the Litany posted earlier:

'Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of virgins, Mother of the Church, Mother of divine grace, Mother most pure, Mother most chaste, Mother inviolate, Mother undefiled, Mother most amiable, Mother admirable, Mother of good counsel, Mother of mercy, Virgin most prudent, Virgin most powerful, Virgin most merciful, Virgin most faithful, Mirror of justice, Seat of wisdom, Mystical rose, Tower of David, Tower if ivory, Ark of the covenant, Gate of heaven, Morning star, Health of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Comfort of the afflicted, Help of Christians, Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Prophets, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of all Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen assumed into heaven, Queen of the most holy Rosary, Queen of families, Queen of peace.'

So, who is being praised here? The creature, or the creator?"

The creature is being praised there obviously. (Do you see "worship her" in that litany of honor there anywhere? If so, you are seeing things that are not there.) Do you have kids? If so, do you ever praise them? Do you show honor to people (for example, do you show honor to your Mother and Father)? Do you know a text in the Bible where it tells you to never praise anybody, or show anybody honor, but to only praise God and only to show God honor?

Was Paul committing a sin when he praised various human beings (creatures) in his letters? (See, for one example, 1 Thessalonians 1:2-3 where it says, "We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.")

Jesus honored His Mother, and we should honor her too. Out of all the billions and billions and billions of human beings who have ever lived, God only chose one single one of them to have the extremely high honor and privilege to bear His Son, and it wasn't you, Puny, and it wasn't me.

God showed His special creature Mary great honor, and so should we, and we should be ever grateful that she said "yes". I strongly urge you to reconsider all of these things prayerfully.

185 posted on 05/28/2013 4:08:36 PM PDT by Heart-Rest ( http://www.catholic.com/ http://www.newadvent.org/ http://www.ewtn.com/)
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