PC(USA) Extorting Money from Local Churches

Self ^ | May 8, 2013 | Timber Rattler

[Timber Rattler]

This is a request for information assistance. Last night, I received a disturbing email from a longtime friend and pastor from my hometown church, which is breaking from the corrupt, mainline Presbyterian Church (USA), like many others are doing. Apparently PC (USA) has asked the congregation for an exorbitant sum of money, and is threatening the church manse and other property in an effort to force the congregation back into the corrupted fold.

I've been out of the Presbyterian loop for a while but want to help, and so I'm wondering if anyone has any specific information about what is going on inside the PC (USA) that might be contributing to this ugly situation and what is being done to deal with it.

[faithhopecharity]

ps:
if your congregation tries to keep its church,
get a knowledgeable lawyer FIRST before taking any actions or votes or writing any letters even.

and
forget all about Judeo-Christian agape. You will be going up against a very well-lawyered, aggressive money-grubbing and now-very-anti-Christian gang that wants the property, all of it, (and doesn’t give a rat-s ass damn about you, your parishioners, or Christian faith principles).

The much-maligned money-changers are no longer just sitting on the front steps offering acceptable sacrifices for sale to faithful pilgrims ... they’ve infiltrated and taken over the very Temple itself.

[omega4412]

Check out the Anglican resistance. One place to start is the Virtue Online website. Somewhat different theology but similar legal questions. Unfortunately Satan seems to have the better lawyers.

[Persevero]

Of course seek legal counsel. Probably but not certainly, you will lose the building. Prepare to start meeting somewhere else.

The elders I suppose can start a new bank account and start putting collections in there to get ready to leave.

Suppose you lose the building, what is the PCUSA going to do with it? Probably put it on the market in a while. Unless they can get a unbiblical false church work going there.

Once it’s on the market, have someone buy it back. Voila.

It will be tougher going than your church is used to for a few years, but (easy for me to say) you will probably all be the better for it. Pioneer times, standing for Christ, sticking together, sacrificing. It’s all good.

[jboot]

Someone else mentioned the struggles of the Episcopal congregations. In addition to VirtueOnline I can recommend Stand Firm. You may want to reach out to Pastor Matt Kennedy. He has Been Through It and has a wealth of wisdom for congregations in the wilderness.

On a personal note, we recently visited the cute little country PCUSA church down the road. Without getting into much detail it was a chaotic multicultural circus rather than a worship service. I am not proud to admit that for the first time ever we left church before the service was over. There were a few old souls in the back pews that smiled knowingly at us as we left. I guess they are just hanging around so they can be buried in grandpa's church. It was heartbreakingly discouraging.

[Gamecock]

Nothing new here. They are commies and want total control.

If you look at churches that have broken with them, usually now PCA or OPC, you will notice that many of the churches are very basic, newer structures. That's because they left the PC(USA) with nothing and had to start over from scratch. There are some exceptions.

I see this as part of the persecutions that all true believers will have to undergo. If you want to worship as outlined in Scripture you will have to pay.

[NoCmpromiz]

Another PA congregation leaves PC/USA...Grove City church gets new start in ECO

Much depends on the laws of your state. Some states do not recognize the 'trust' clause of the PC/USA in the case that PC/USA failed to modify the deed for the local property and thus the name on the deed is the local congregation. (See for instance this US Supreme Court decision as pertaining to Indiana law.) I would suggest that your pastor contact The Presbyterian Lay Committee (The Layman Online) for starters. PLC would have a better record of churches and the terms of the dissolution agreements that I could find.

There is a procedure within the Book of Order that covers a congregation wishing to be released from the main body, usually to affiliate with another Presbyterian body. We are seeing many of the 'conservative' local churches leaving PC/USA for affiliation with the Evangelical Presbyterian Church and other bodies that are not as antiBiblical as the PC/USA has become.

As a generality, what has happened is that the regional presbytery upon agreeing to allow the local body to dissolve the relationship will 'suggest' (translate: demand) a 'tithe' (translate: extortion payment) of ten percent of the value of the properties in question - which can amount to a bit more than small congregations can afford.

In my neck of the woods, the first local church that tried to flee the PC/USA and the ultra liberal Presbytery of the Hudson River was saddled with the 'tithe' stipulation. Many other local churches, and not all were Presbyterian, sent this congregation donations to help meet the extortion payments need. A second local body was required to pay the equivalent of either five or ten years (forget which) of per-capita assessment to a mission fund. A third local church tried the legal route that their name was on the deed and thus the 'trust' clause didn't apply. They won the initial legal skirmish, but Hudson River Presbytery appealed, and the local body lost on appeal. They are now in a really tough situation. A forth local body has just started the process by requesting to be released from PC/USA with their property to affiliate with Presbyterian Church in America. Not sure how that will play out.

Don't know if any of the above is of any help or consolation... If you have any questions that I might be able to answer, ping back. (Disclaimer: While I am an ordained Elder from one of the churches mentioned above, I was not on Session during the approximately two year span that it required to be free from PC/USA, so I am not exactly in the loop as to all the meanderings that took..)

[NoCmpromiz]

Here is the section from the Book of Order:

=====

G-4.0202     Decisions Concerning Property

The provisions of this Constitution prescribing the manner in which decisions are made, reviewed, 
and corrected within this church are applicable to all matters pertaining to property.

G-4.0203     Church Property Held in Trust

All property held by or for a congregation, a presbytery, a synod, the General Assembly, or the 
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), whether legal title is lodged in a corporation, a trustee or 
trustees, or an unincorporated association, and whether the property is used in programs of a 
congregation or of a higher council or retained for the production of income, is held in trust 
nevertheless for the use and benefit of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).

G-4.0204     Property Used Contrary to the Constitution

Whenever property of, or held for, a congregation of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) ceases to be 
used by that congregation as a congregation of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) in accordance with 
this Constitution, such property shall be held, used, applied, transferred, or sold as provided by 
the presbytery.

G-4.0205     Property of a Dissolved or Extinct Congregation

Whenever a congregation is formally dissolved by the presbytery, or has become extinct by reason 
of the dispersal of its members, the abandonment of its work, or other cause, such property as it 
may have shall be held, used, and applied for such uses, purposes, and trusts as the presbytery 
may direct, limit, and appoint, or such property may be sold or disposed of as the presbytery may 
direct, in conformity with the Constitution of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).

G-4.0206     Selling, Encumbering, or Leasing Church Property

a.    Selling or Encumbering Congregational Property

A congregation shall not sell, mortgage, or otherwise encumber any of its real property and it 
shall not acquire real property subject to an encumbrance or condition without the written 
permission of the presbytery transmitted through the session of the congregation.

b.   Leasing Congregational Property

A congregation shall not lease its real property used for purposes of worship, or lease for more 
than five years any of its other real property, without the written permission of the presbytery 
transmitted through the session of the congregation.

G-4.0207     Property of Congregation in Schism

The relationship to the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) of a congregation can be severed only by 
constitutional action on the part of the presbytery (G-3.0303b). If there is a
schism within the membership of a congregation and the presbytery is unable to effect a 
reconciliation or a division into separate congregations within the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), 
the presbytery shall determine if one of the factions is entitled to the property because it is 
identified by the presbytery as the true church within the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This 
determination does not depend upon which faction received the majority vote within the congregation 
at the time of the schism.

G-4.0208      Exceptions

The provisions of this chapter shall apply to all congregations of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 
except that any congregation which was not subject to a similar provision of the constitution of 
the church of which it was a part, prior to the reunion of the Presbyterian Church in the United 
States and The United Presbyterian Church in the United States of America to form the Presbyterian 
Church (U.S.A.), has been excused from that provision of this chapter if the congregation, within a 
period of eight years following the establishment of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), voted to 
be exempt from such provision in a regularly called meeting and thereafter notified the presbytery 
of which it was a constituent congregation of such vote. The congregation voting to be so exempt 
shall hold title to its property and exercise its privileges of incorporation and property 
ownership under the provisions of the Constitution to which it was subject immediately prior to 
the establishment of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This paragraph may not be amended (G-6.05).

=====
Note that the local congregation had to exclude itself from the 'trust' clause within eight years of the formation of the PC/USA. Also note that the PC/USA has set itself up as both the benefactor and the executor of the trust. This seems to be in conflict with most law concerning trusts, but to my knowledge, no one has attacked this from a legal angle.. (Just another thought to toss at some legal beagle... )

[HarleyD]

I've just received an email from our church about a Anglican church that fought back over the issue of homosexuality and lost their building and bank account. For those who think Christians are not aware of this and working to stop this, here is a heartening letter I received from the pastor with some names blocked:

Thanks for your note and suggestion regarding our brothers and sisters in Christ who have "done the right thing". Since The XXX Anglican lost their building and assets, congregational giving and attendance have both increased. Their greatest need has not been money, but rather space in which to meet. It has been heartening to see how the broader body of Christ has rallied around them. Their Sunday worship services are being held at XXX Catholic High School. Their youth programs are being held at XXX Baptist and XXX Presbyterian (USA). Their middle school/high school day camp was here at XXX. We have also allowed them to use our facility for other meetings and conferences at no cost. By God's grace the church is actually thriving without their old buildings. I am told that this year's confirmation class (the equivalent of our communicants class) was the largest ever. So what to the world would be "dark days" have been transformed into days of hope and growth. As XXX preached, their suffering is being redeemed in Christ. We will continue to support, encourage and pray for this Godly congregation as we serve together in Christ.

Blessings,

[signed]

What is encouraging is the number of diverse groups that have pulled together over this.

[Timber Rattler]

Thank you all very much for this wonderful information and advice. I spoke with my old pastor on the phone last night, and the situation is exactly as described in the posts above concerning other small churches.

My hometown church has already left PC(USA) and joined the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and so now PC(USA) is turning loose its attack dogs and demanding a large cash payment, or else the keys to the church building and the pastor's manse. He's got some smart but inexperienced people helping him and there are going to be some negotiations since the congregation can hardly afford what PC (USA) wants, and so I have no idea how this is going to play out. I sent him everything that has been said here, along with the associated web links, and so we will be making a difference in this case.

My warmest thanks to everybody who responded on this thread!

[omega4412]

What is encouraging is the number of diverse groups that have pulled together over this.

Ecumenical resistance. The religious equivalent of the Committees of Correspondence in the American Revolution.

[PCUSAhelp]

Yes, there is help. Go to www.layman.org and click on the “Discern” page if you’re looking specifically for information about churches departing the PCUSA for more conservative denominations. There is a chart of more than 200 churches that have realigned their denominational affiliation in the past 5 years and there are links to resources that churches are using to navigate the waters. Yes, most churches are having to pay their presbyteries in order to get “out.” We can talk more about that if you’re interested.

[PCUSAhelp]

There is a chart of churches and (where available) the information related to what they’ve paid to get out of the PCUSA. Posted here: http://www.layman.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/churches-seeking-discernment.xls

[PCUSAhelp]

This statement is not true. Participants in the PCUSA Board of Pensions are fully vested after three years. That means that most pastors vest during seminary. The Board of Pensions is actually one of the bodies related to the PCUSA that is not monkeying around - at least on the Pension side of things. See: http://www.layman.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/pension-brochure.pdf

[PCUSAhelp]

Here’s their playbook: http://www.layman.org/pcusa-lawyers-advise-hardline-tactics-in-church-property-disputes/

Great legal work is being done on behalf of local churches. A third edition is in the works but to read up on the issues get “The Guide to Church Property Law, 2nd edition”
http://www.layman.org/discern/property-issues/a-guide-to-church-property-law-2nd-edition/

[PCUSAhelp]

Sorry to be so late in finding this conversation! Do you have an update?

[driftdiver]

Welcome to FR.

A pastor told me that.