Pope: Shame is a true Christian virtue

Radio Vaticana ^ | 4/29/2013

[markomalley]

The Confessional is not a ‘dry cleaners’ where our sins are automatically washed away and Jesus is not waiting there to ‘beat us up’, but to forgive us with the tenderness of a father for our sins. Moreover, being ashamed of our sins is not only natural, it’s a virtue that helps prepare us for God's forgiveness. This was the central message of Pope Francis’ homily Monday morning during Mass celebrated with staff from the Administration of the Patrimony of the Apostolic See (APSA) and religious present in Casa Santa Marta. Emer McCarthy reports:

Commenting on the First Letter of St. John, which states " God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all," Francis Pope pointed out that "we all have darkness in our lives," moments "where everything, even our consciousness, is in the dark”, but this - he pointed out - does not mean we walk in darkness:

"Walking in darkness means being overly pleased with ourselves, believing that we do not need salvation. That is darkness! When we continue on this road of darkness, it is not easy to turn back. Therefore, John continues, because this way of thinking made him reflect: 'If we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us'. Look to your sins, to our sins, we are all sinners, all of us ... This is the starting point. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful, He is so just He forgives us our sins, cleansing us from all unrighteousness…The Lord who is so good, so faithful, so just that He forgives. "

"When the Lord forgives us, He does justice" - continued the Pope - first to himself, "because He came to save and forgive", welcoming us with the tenderness of a Father for his children: "The Lord is tender towards those who fear, to those who come to Him "and with tenderness," He always understand us”. He wants to gift us the peace that only He gives. " "This is what happens in the Sacrament of Reconciliation" even though "many times we think that going to confession is like going to the dry cleaner" to clean the dirt from our clothes:

"But Jesus in the confessional is not a dry cleaner: it is an encounter with Jesus, but with this Jesus who waits for us, who waits for us just as we are. “But, Lord, look ... this is how I am”, we are often ashamed to tell the truth: 'I did this, I thought this'. But shame is a true Christian virtue, and even human ... the ability to be ashamed: I do not know if there is a similar saying in Italian, but in our country to those who are never ashamed are called “sin vergüenza’: this means ‘the unashamed ', because they are people who do not have the ability to be ashamed and to be ashamed is a virtue of the humble, of the man and the woman who are humble. "

Pope Francis continued: “ we must have trust, because when we sin we have an advocate with the Father, "Jesus Christ the righteous." And He "supports us before the Father" and defends us in front of our weaknesses. But you need to stand in front of the Lord "with our truth of sinners", "with confidence, even with joy, without masquerading... We must never masquerade before God." And shame is a virtue: "blessed shame." "This is the virtue that Jesus asks of us: humility and meekness".

"Humility and meekness are like the frame of a Christian life. A Christian must always be so, humble and meek. And Jesus waits for us to forgive us. We can ask Him a question: Is going to confession like to a torture session? No! It is going to praise God, because I, a sinner , have been saved by Him. And is He waiting for me to beat me? No, with tenderness to forgive me. And if tomorrow I do the same? Go again, and go and go and go .... He always waits for us. This tenderness of the Lord, this humility, this meekness .... "

This confidence, concluded Pope Francis "gives us room to breathe." "The Lord give us this grace, the courage to always go to Him with the truth, because the truth is light and not the darkness of half-truths or lies before God. It give us this grace! So be it. "

[Elsie]

That is not what I meant, although I admit that I really don't understand what is meant by "Kept by Works" outside of some specifically anti-Catholic polemicism. Works are not an input to the process of Salvation, but rather a necessary response to Salvation. Where they are absent so too is Salvation.

You've answered your own question.

[Elsie]

It is true, they can open the door to Jesus, but they cannot bring the complete truth.

Still no salvation outside the church; eh?

[Natural Law]

"His Holy Spirit is the Teacher of His inspired Word."

That is exactly the function of the Paraclete Jesus gave to His Church. As for man, you cannot seriously claim that all of your beliefs (theology) you obtained without the help, guidance or teaching of any other humans. Rumor has it that you too are a man.

Let's jut agree to disagree. My recommendation is that you drink more decaf and pray to calm your spirit and work out your own Salvation. I'm doing just fine without you. Besides, your anger and agitation are not healthy for you either physically or spiritually.

Peace be to you

[boatbums]

Your concluding statement is contrary to the clear statements of the entire Canon of Justification. You went on to say that even though clearly profess what we teach, we actually do not. So, actually you did. These discussions work better when all parties seek the truth.

Actually, it wasn't. Since you seem convinced I mischaracterized the RCC doctrine of justification, then, in the search for truth, explain exactly HOW it was mischaracterized. Seeing that I WAS raised in the RCC and have studied the doctrines thoroughly, not to mention the posted doctrines you and many of the other Catholics on this forum have made, explain how you can say you believe in justification by grace through faith and not by works and how that differs from the Reformation's definition. THEN we might get somewhere.

[Natural Law]

"You should read my comment again."

I did: "It's plain to see that Catholicism teaches man’s works are necessary in addition to the work of Jesus Christ for maintaining a state of justification before God and for meriting eternal life."

Yup, still mischaracterized, in spite of all of your Catholic upbringing and education. (Maybe your lack of understanding of Church teaching is what lead you away from the Church, but that is the subject of a different conversation). You are contending that Catholic teaching is that works are in some way efficacious. They are not. They are necessarily indicative of Salvation, meaning that if you are saved spiritual and corporeal works of mercy will proceed from you. It is not that those works are the cause of Salvation or the retention of Salvation.

Peace be with you.

[Elsie]

These are YOUR words: "Works are not an input to the process of Salvation, but rather a necessary response to Salvation. Where they are absent so too is Salvation."

This seems to be EQUAL to: "It's plain to see that Catholicism teaches man’s works are necessary in addition to the work of Jesus Christ for maintaining a state of justification before God and for meriting eternal life."

---

I find it hard to see that the claim of 'mischaracterization' applies.

[Natural Law]

"This seems to be EQUAL to:"

No, it doesn't. Any suggestion that works are necessary FOR Salvation is a mischaracterization. Corporeal and Spiritual works of mercy are a necessary result OF Salvation.

Pax et Bonem

[Elsie]

Where they are absent so too is Salvation."

[Natural Law]

"Where they are absent so too is Salvation."

That is correct. At the expense of getting Thomistic, Salvation is the efficient cause of Corporeal and Spiritual Works of Mercy, works are the effect. Where there is no cause there can be no effect.

I wish you peace and blessings

[boatbums]

Works are not an input to the process of Salvation, but rather a necessary response to Salvation. Where they are absent so too is Salvation. Works do, however, have an efficacious effect on Grace which is an input to Salvation. As the Holy Spirit is the manifestation op the love between the Father and the Son, Grace is the manifestation of the love between God and man. Agape is the sharing of that Grace / love, with each other. Passing on the Grace we receive, through corporeal and spiritual works of mercy, is the only way we can cooperate with and retain the Grace God gives us freely.

Got that, elsie? "Works" are not done in order to get salvation, but to keep it and it is all still grace. Does this double talk sound a little Mormonish to you, too?

[Natural Law]

"Got that, elsie? "Works" are not done in order to get salvation, but to keep it and it is all still grace..."

More distortions. (I know, old myths die hard.) I never said "keep", that is a term that has been unsuccessfully injected into the discussion several times now. I resisted the first attempt to to impose it on actual Catholic teaching and will continue to do so. Where there are no Fruit of the Holy Spirit there is no Holy Spirit. Where there are no works, faith is dead and there is no Salvation.

Peace be to you

[boatbums]

Yup, still mischaracterized, in spite of all of your Catholic upbringing and education. (Maybe your lack of understanding of Church teaching is what lead you away from the Church, but that is the subject of a different conversation). You are contending that Catholic teaching is that works are in some way efficacious. They are not. They are necessarily indicative of Salvation, meaning that if you are saved spiritual and corporeal works of mercy will proceed from you. It is not that those works are the cause of Salvation or the retention of Salvation.

Nope. What led me away from the Catholic Church was seeing the direct contradiction between what it teaches and what the Scriptures clearly say. Even at sixteen years old, I saw that!

So, here you claim, "It is not that those works are the cause of Salvation or the retention of Salvation", but a few posts ago, you told Elsie:

Works are not an input to the process of Salvation, but rather a necessary response to Salvation. Where they are absent so too is Salvation. Works do, however, have an efficacious effect on Grace which is an input to Salvation....Passing on the Grace we receive, through corporeal and spiritual works of mercy, is the only way we can cooperate with and retain the Grace God gives us freely.

So, please, by all means, explain to us uneducated in the nuances of the deep theological sea of Roman Catholicism(since that MUST be the reason for the confusion) how to make sense of this contradiction. Thank you.

[boatbums]

I never said "keep", that is a term that has been unsuccessfully injected into the discussion several times now. I resisted the first attempt to to impose it on actual Catholic teaching and will continue to do so.

Yes, of course, that MUST be it! You used the word "retain" and I interpreted that as "keep". Imagine my surprise when I looked up the word "retain" and saw the good ol' dictionary shares my impulse:

re·tain/rɪˈteɪn/ Show Spelled [ri-teyn] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1. to keep possession of.
2. to continue to use, practice, etc.: to retain an old custom.
3. to continue to hold or have: to retain a prisoner in custody; a cloth that retains its color.
4. to keep in mind; remember.
5. to hold in place or position.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retain)

Who is doing the distorting here?

[Natural Law]

"Who is doing the distorting here?"

You continue to do so, or it is possible that you simply continue to err. I am not going to ascribe motive.

I used the word "retain" in association with Grace, not with Salvation. Works facilitate the retention of Grace, but do not retain Salvation. Please refrain from putting words into my mouth or trying to rephrase my statements into a distorted representation of what I actually said.

Peace be with you

[presently no screen name]

That is exactly the function of the Paraclete Jesus gave to His Church.

HIS Church is based on HIS Holy Spirit Word ALONE. The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with 'man made teachings' because they are 'of man' and not 'of God'.

As for man, you cannot seriously claim that all of your beliefs (theology) you obtained without the help, guidance or teaching of any other humans.

And you seriously cannot claim that all humans are the same. There are some 'of evil' and some 'of God'. 'Man' with man made teachings are not of God. Only what is God's, His Word, is 'of God'. Why the wrestle with such a concept that is easy to get? Pride is the hindrance that wants 'man' on the throne and not 'God'. But the Throne is God's and His Word is the FINAL Authority.

Let's jut agree to disagree.

It is not us who are disagreeing for It is Written. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

My recommendation is that you drink more decaf and pray to calm your spirit and work out your own Salvation.

What spirit is that - that needs decaf to calm it? I have no use of a 'recommendation' from man on what to drink as I only listen to God Who has given me water to drink where I will never thirst again. "Whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to ETERNAL LIFE." John 4:14

I'm doing just fine without you.

It's not about me but Who is within me for It Is Written "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20

Besides, your anger and agitation are not healthy for you either physically or spiritually.

What is not healthy is believing in 'man' for 'the thief who came to kill, rob and destroy' uses them as his pawns with his man made teachings. Satan is who deceived through 'his words' of 'Did God really say'? There is nothing new under the sun.

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun". Ecc 1:9

I am filled with the JOY of the Hply Spirit. This anger and agitation you speak of is of 'another' spirit so I'm not surprised you speak of it. Being born again of the Spirit of God - I am a new creation 'in Christ Jesus'. Praise God!

I am blessed because The WORD lives within me!

[Natural Law]

"I am blessed because The WORD lives within me!"

Would you be so kind as to point to the evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit in your posting history?

I will continue to pray for you

[presently no screen name]

Would you be so kind as to point to the evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit in your posting history?

Posting History?? What happened to staying on topic of the thread? Now you want to make the thread all about me and my history?

YOU FAIL in the attempt to change the topic unto me and the truth remains that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with 'man made teachings/doctrines' because they are 'of man' and not 'of God'!

[boatbums]

I used the word "retain" in association with Grace, not with Salvation. Works facilitate the retention of Grace, but do not retain Salvation. Please refrain from putting words into my mouth or trying to rephrase my statements into a distorted representation of what I actually said.

Parsing of words does tend to lead to distortion. That's just how it works in a forum rather than how it would in a face-to-face conversation. Defining of common terms would help because we know that definitions of terms vary based on personal background. It isn't my intention to distort - I don't think I have to, though I DO sense a need on your part to paint it that way.

So, now we weed through some of the parsing to get to what I hope can be a real discussion. Whether "retain" is in association with grace OR salvation. Is it really necessary to divide the doctrine of justification that way? I already know that:

Catholic theology denies that salvation is by grace alone.

Catholic theology denies that our justification is by the sole and sufficient merit of Christ.

That really IS the gist of the disagreement between Catholics and the Reformers - though, obviously, there were more issues that divided them. You say you believe works "facilitate the retention of grace" but this does not mean we must do works to be saved. Yet, from Scripture we know we are saved by the grace of God and salvation is BY grace through faith and NOT by works. Salvation is the "gift of God", yet Catholic teaching, according to you, is that works must be done to retain (keep) grace that leads to salvation. And this, somehow, is not a contradiction. Can we address these points?

[presently no screen name]

......And I am only 31 years old so this was the 1990s

Here is something from 1980 before you were born. It’s new to me, also, as I just received it today on a distribution list from a catholic classmate of mine from 1st grade through high school.

It’s short but maybe it will give your grandpa some laughs.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/0AKvRvL5r3A?rel=0

[Elsie]

Does this double talk sound a little Mormonish to you, too?

If I compared Catholics to Mormons I might be accused of bashing them.