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To: Natural Law
I used the word "retain" in association with Grace, not with Salvation. Works facilitate the retention of Grace, but do not retain Salvation. Please refrain from putting words into my mouth or trying to rephrase my statements into a distorted representation of what I actually said.

Parsing of words does tend to lead to distortion. That's just how it works in a forum rather than how it would in a face-to-face conversation. Defining of common terms would help because we know that definitions of terms vary based on personal background. It isn't my intention to distort - I don't think I have to, though I DO sense a need on your part to paint it that way.

So, now we weed through some of the parsing to get to what I hope can be a real discussion. Whether "retain" is in association with grace OR salvation. Is it really necessary to divide the doctrine of justification that way? I already know that:

Catholic theology denies that salvation is by grace alone.

Catholic theology denies that our justification is by the sole and sufficient merit of Christ.

That really IS the gist of the disagreement between Catholics and the Reformers - though, obviously, there were more issues that divided them. You say you believe works "facilitate the retention of grace" but this does not mean we must do works to be saved. Yet, from Scripture we know we are saved by the grace of God and salvation is BY grace through faith and NOT by works. Salvation is the "gift of God", yet Catholic teaching, according to you, is that works must be done to retain (keep) grace that leads to salvation. And this, somehow, is not a contradiction. Can we address these points?

178 posted on 05/01/2013 6:15:13 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
"Catholic theology denies that salvation is by grace alone."

I think you are confusing your theologies. Where Protestant theology stresses "Sola Fide", Salvation by Faith Alone, Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone (Sola Gratia), through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit. I can cite you over a dozen articles from the Catechism to corroborate this if you wish.

The parsing of words is incumbent in our faith. Genesis teaches that Gods ideas became words and through words God spoke creation int existence. Even God's concept of Himself is the Logos, the Word. To express a specific idea we need to use a specific word. This attention to detail, described by St. Thomas Aquinas as “Never deny, seldom affirm, always distinguish" is often a criticism of Catholicism. I have no choice but to insist that the exact language be used to exactly express my thoughts.

183 posted on 05/01/2013 6:57:53 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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