Posted on 04/29/2013 4:18:02 AM PDT by markomalley
You've answered your own question.
Still no salvation outside the church; eh?
That is exactly the function of the Paraclete Jesus gave to His Church. As for man, you cannot seriously claim that all of your beliefs (theology) you obtained without the help, guidance or teaching of any other humans. Rumor has it that you too are a man.
Let's jut agree to disagree. My recommendation is that you drink more decaf and pray to calm your spirit and work out your own Salvation. I'm doing just fine without you. Besides, your anger and agitation are not healthy for you either physically or spiritually.
Peace be to you
Actually, it wasn't. Since you seem convinced I mischaracterized the RCC doctrine of justification, then, in the search for truth, explain exactly HOW it was mischaracterized. Seeing that I WAS raised in the RCC and have studied the doctrines thoroughly, not to mention the posted doctrines you and many of the other Catholics on this forum have made, explain how you can say you believe in justification by grace through faith and not by works and how that differs from the Reformation's definition. THEN we might get somewhere.
I did: "It's plain to see that Catholicism teaches man’s works are necessary in addition to the work of Jesus Christ for maintaining a state of justification before God and for meriting eternal life."
Yup, still mischaracterized, in spite of all of your Catholic upbringing and education. (Maybe your lack of understanding of Church teaching is what lead you away from the Church, but that is the subject of a different conversation). You are contending that Catholic teaching is that works are in some way efficacious. They are not. They are necessarily indicative of Salvation, meaning that if you are saved spiritual and corporeal works of mercy will proceed from you. It is not that those works are the cause of Salvation or the retention of Salvation.
Peace be with you.
This seems to be EQUAL to: "It's plain to see that Catholicism teaches man’s works are necessary in addition to the work of Jesus Christ for maintaining a state of justification before God and for meriting eternal life."
I find it hard to see that the claim of 'mischaracterization' applies.
No, it doesn't. Any suggestion that works are necessary FOR Salvation is a mischaracterization. Corporeal and Spiritual works of mercy are a necessary result OF Salvation.
Pax et Bonem
That is correct. At the expense of getting Thomistic, Salvation is the efficient cause of Corporeal and Spiritual Works of Mercy, works are the effect. Where there is no cause there can be no effect.
I wish you peace and blessings
Got that, elsie? "Works" are not done in order to get salvation, but to keep it and it is all still grace. Does this double talk sound a little Mormonish to you, too?
More distortions. (I know, old myths die hard.) I never said "keep", that is a term that has been unsuccessfully injected into the discussion several times now. I resisted the first attempt to to impose it on actual Catholic teaching and will continue to do so. Where there are no Fruit of the Holy Spirit there is no Holy Spirit. Where there are no works, faith is dead and there is no Salvation.
Peace be to you
Nope. What led me away from the Catholic Church was seeing the direct contradiction between what it teaches and what the Scriptures clearly say. Even at sixteen years old, I saw that!
So, here you claim, "It is not that those works are the cause of Salvation or the retention of Salvation", but a few posts ago, you told Elsie:
Works are not an input to the process of Salvation, but rather a necessary response to Salvation. Where they are absent so too is Salvation. Works do, however, have an efficacious effect on Grace which is an input to Salvation....Passing on the Grace we receive, through corporeal and spiritual works of mercy, is the only way we can cooperate with and retain the Grace God gives us freely.
So, please, by all means, explain to us uneducated in the nuances of the deep theological sea of Roman Catholicism(since that MUST be the reason for the confusion) how to make sense of this contradiction. Thank you.
Yes, of course, that MUST be it! You used the word "retain" and I interpreted that as "keep". Imagine my surprise when I looked up the word "retain" and saw the good ol' dictionary shares my impulse:
re·tain/rɪˈteɪn/ Show Spelled [ri-teyn] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1. to keep possession of.
2. to continue to use, practice, etc.: to retain an old custom.
3. to continue to hold or have: to retain a prisoner in custody; a cloth that retains its color.
4. to keep in mind; remember.
5. to hold in place or position.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retain)
Who is doing the distorting here?
You continue to do so, or it is possible that you simply continue to err. I am not going to ascribe motive.
I used the word "retain" in association with Grace, not with Salvation. Works facilitate the retention of Grace, but do not retain Salvation. Please refrain from putting words into my mouth or trying to rephrase my statements into a distorted representation of what I actually said.
Peace be with you
HIS Church is based on HIS Holy Spirit Word ALONE. The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with 'man made teachings' because they are 'of man' and not 'of God'.
As for man, you cannot seriously claim that all of your beliefs (theology) you obtained without the help, guidance or teaching of any other humans.
And you seriously cannot claim that all humans are the same. There are some 'of evil' and some 'of God'. 'Man' with man made teachings are not of God. Only what is God's, His Word, is 'of God'. Why the wrestle with such a concept that is easy to get? Pride is the hindrance that wants 'man' on the throne and not 'God'. But the Throne is God's and His Word is the FINAL Authority.
Let's jut agree to disagree.
It is not us who are disagreeing for It is Written. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12
My recommendation is that you drink more decaf and pray to calm your spirit and work out your own Salvation.
What spirit is that - that needs decaf to calm it? I have no use of a 'recommendation' from man on what to drink as I only listen to God Who has given me water to drink where I will never thirst again. "Whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to ETERNAL LIFE." John 4:14
I'm doing just fine without you.
It's not about me but Who is within me for It Is Written "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20
Besides, your anger and agitation are not healthy for you either physically or spiritually.
What is not healthy is believing in 'man' for 'the thief who came to kill, rob and destroy' uses them as his pawns with his man made teachings. Satan is who deceived through 'his words' of 'Did God really say'? There is nothing new under the sun.
"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun". Ecc 1:9
I am filled with the JOY of the Hply Spirit. This anger and agitation you speak of is of 'another' spirit so I'm not surprised you speak of it. Being born again of the Spirit of God - I am a new creation 'in Christ Jesus'. Praise God!
I am blessed because The WORD lives within me!
Would you be so kind as to point to the evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit in your posting history?
I will continue to pray for you
Posting History?? What happened to staying on topic of the thread? Now you want to make the thread all about me and my history?
YOU FAIL in the attempt to change the topic unto me and the truth remains that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with 'man made teachings/doctrines' because they are 'of man' and not 'of God'!
Parsing of words does tend to lead to distortion. That's just how it works in a forum rather than how it would in a face-to-face conversation. Defining of common terms would help because we know that definitions of terms vary based on personal background. It isn't my intention to distort - I don't think I have to, though I DO sense a need on your part to paint it that way.
So, now we weed through some of the parsing to get to what I hope can be a real discussion. Whether "retain" is in association with grace OR salvation. Is it really necessary to divide the doctrine of justification that way? I already know that:
Catholic theology denies that salvation is by grace alone.
Catholic theology denies that our justification is by the sole and sufficient merit of Christ.
That really IS the gist of the disagreement between Catholics and the Reformers - though, obviously, there were more issues that divided them. You say you believe works "facilitate the retention of grace" but this does not mean we must do works to be saved. Yet, from Scripture we know we are saved by the grace of God and salvation is BY grace through faith and NOT by works. Salvation is the "gift of God", yet Catholic teaching, according to you, is that works must be done to retain (keep) grace that leads to salvation. And this, somehow, is not a contradiction. Can we address these points?
......And I am only 31 years old so this was the 1990s
Here is something from 1980 before you were born. It’s new to me, also, as I just received it today on a distribution list from a catholic classmate of mine from 1st grade through high school.
It’s short but maybe it will give your grandpa some laughs.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/0AKvRvL5r3A?rel=0
If I compared Catholics to Mormons I might be accused of bashing them.
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