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The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
Is God a Trinity? ^ | Various | Various

Posted on 04/15/2013 5:06:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC

The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine

Few understand how the Trinity doctrine came to be accepted - several centuries after the Bible was completed! Yet its roots go back much farther in history.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

Most people assume that everything that bears the label "Christian" must have originated with Jesus Christ and His early followers. But this is definitely not the case. All we have to do is look at the words of Jesus Christ and His apostles to see that this is clearly not true.

The historical record shows that, just as Jesus and the New Testament writers foretold, various heretical ideas and teachers rose up from within the early Church and infiltrated it from without. Christ Himself warned His followers: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name . . . and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:4-5).

You can read many similar warnings in other passages (such as Matthew 24:11; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 1 John 2:18-19, 26; 4:1-3).

Barely two decades after Christ's death and resurrection, the apostle Paul wrote that many believers were already "turning away . . . to a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6). He wrote that he was forced to contend with "false apostles, deceitful workers" who were fraudulently "transforming themselves into apostles of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:13). One of the major problems he had to deal with was "false brethren" (verse 26).

By late in the first century, as we see from 3 John 9-10, conditions had grown so dire that false ministers openly refused to receive representatives of the apostle John and were excommunicating true Christians from the Church!

Of this troubling period Edward Gibbon, the famed historian, wrote in his classic work The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire of a "dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church" (1821, Vol. 2, p. 111). It wasn't long before true servants of God became a marginalized and scattered minority among those calling themselves Christian. A very different religion, now compromised with many concepts and practices rooted in ancient paganism (such mixing of religious beliefs being known as syncretism, common in the Roman Empire at the time), took hold and transformed the faith founded by Jesus Christ.

Historian Jesse Hurlbut says of this time of transformation: "We name the last generation of the first century, from 68 to 100 A.D., 'The Age of Shadows,' partly because the gloom of persecution was over the church, but more especially because of all the periods in the [church's] history, it is the one about which we know the least. We have no longer the clear light of the Book of Acts to guide us; and no author of that age has filled the blank in the history . . ."For fifty years after St. Paul's life a curtain hangs over the church, through which we strive vainly to look; and when at last it rises, about 120 A.D. with the writings of the earliest church fathers, we find a church in many aspects very different from that in the days of St. Peter and St. Paul" ( The Story of the Christian Church, 1970, p. 33).

This "very different" church would grow in power and influence, and within a few short centuries would come to dominate even the mighty Roman Empire! By the second century, faithful members of the Church, Christ's "little flock" (Luke 12:32), had largely been scattered by waves of deadly persecution. They held firmly to the biblical truth about Jesus Christ and God the Father, though they were persecuted by the Roman authorities as well as those who professed Christianity but were in reality teaching "another Jesus" and a "different gospel" (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9).

Different ideas about Christ's divinity lead to conflict

This was the setting in which the doctrine of the Trinity emerged. In those early decades after Jesus Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. Was He man? Was He God? Was He God appearing as a man? Was He an illusion? Was He a mere man who became God? Was He created by God the Father, or did He exist eternally with the Father?

All of these ideas had their proponents. The unity of belief of the original Church was lost as new beliefs, many borrowed or adapted from pagan religions, replaced the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Let us be clear that when it comes to the intellectual and theological debates in those early centuries that led to the formulation of the Trinity, the true Church was largely absent from the scene, having been driven underground. (See the chapter "The Rise of a Counterfeit Christianity " in our free booklet The Church Jesus Built for an overview of this critical period.).

For this reason, in that stormy period we often see debates not between truth and error, but between one error and a different error— a fact seldom recognized by many modern scholars yet critical for our understanding.

A classic example of this was the dispute over the nature of Christ that led the Roman emperor Constantine the Great to convene the Council of Nicaea (in modern-day western Turkey) in A.D. 325.

Constantine, although held by many to be the first "Christian" Roman Emperor, was actually a sun-worshiper who was only baptized on his deathbed. During his reign he had his eldest son and his wife murdered. He was also vehemently anti-Semitic, referring in one of his edicts to "the detestable Jewish crowd" and "the customs of these most wicked men"—customs that were in fact rooted in the Bible and practiced by Jesus and the apostles.

As emperor in a period of great tumult within the Roman Empire, Constantine was challenged with keeping the empire unified. He recognized the value of religion in uniting his empire. This was, in fact, one of his primary motivations in accepting and sanctioning the "Christian" religion (which, by this time, had drifted far from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles and was Christian in name only)

. But now Constantine faced a new challenge. Religion researcher Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God that "one of the first problems that had to be solved was the doctrine of God . . . a new danger arose from within which split Christians into bitterly warring camps" (1993, p. 106).

Debate over the nature of God at the Council of Nicaea

Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea in the year 325 as much for political reasons—for unity in the empire—as religious ones. The primary issue at that time came to be known as the Arian controversy.

"In the hope of securing for his throne the support of the growing body of Christians he had shown them considerable favor and it was to his interest to have the church vigorous and united. The Arian controversy was threatening its unity and menacing its strength. He therefore undertook to put an end to the trouble. It was suggested to him, perhaps by the Spanish bishop Hosius, who was influential at court, that if a synod were to meet representing the whole church both east and west, it might be possible to restore harmony.

"Constantine himself of course neither knew nor cared anything about the matter in dispute but he was eager to bring the controversy to a close, and Hosius' advice appealed to him as sound" (Arthur Cushman McGiffert, A History of Christian Thought, 1954, Vol. 1, p. 258).

Arius, a priest from Alexandria, Egypt, taught that Christ, because He was the Son of God, must have had a beginning and therefore was a special creation of God. Further, if Jesus was the Son, the Father of necessity must be older. Opposing the teachings of Arius was Athanasius, a deacon also from Alexandria. His view was an early form of Trinitarianism wherein the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were one but at the same time distinct from each other.

The decision as to which view the church council would accept was to a large extent arbitrary. Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God: "When the bishops gathered at Nicaea on May 20, 325, to resolve the crisis, very few would have shared Athanasius's view of Christ. Most held a position midway between Athanasius and Arius" (p. 110).

As emperor, Constantine was in the unusual position of deciding church doctrine even though he was not really a Christian. (The following year is when he had both his wife and son murdered, as previously mentioned).

Historian Henry Chadwick attests, "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun" ( The Early Church, 1993, p. 122). As to the emperor's embrace of Christianity, Chadwick admits, "His conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear" (p. 125).

Chadwick does say that Constantine's deathbed baptism itself "implies no doubt about his Christian belief," it being common for rulers to put off baptism to avoid accountability for things like torture and executing criminals (p. 127). But this justification doesn't really help the case for the emperor's conversion being genuine.

Norbert Brox, a professor of church history, confirms that Constantine was never actually a converted Christian: "Constantine did not experience any conversion; there are no signs of a change of faith in him. He never said of himself that he had turned to another god . . . At the time when he turned to Christianity, for him this was Sol Invictus (the victorious sun god)" ( A Concise History of the Early Church, 1996, p. 48).

When it came to the Nicene Council, The Encyclopaedia Britannica states: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination" (1971 edition, Vol. 6, "Constantine," p. 386).

With the emperor's approval, the Council rejected the minority view of Arius and, having nothing definitive with which to replace it, approved the view of Athanasius—also a minority view. The church was left in the odd position of officially supporting, from that point forward, the decision made at Nicaea to endorse a belief held by only a minority of those attending.

The groundwork for official acceptance of the Trinity was now laid—but it took more than three centuries after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for this unbiblical teaching to emerge!

Nicene decision didn't end the debate

The Council of Nicaea did not end the controversy. Karen Armstrong explains: "Athanasius managed to impose his theology on the delegates . . . with the emperor breathing down their necks . . .

"The show of agreement pleased Constantine, who had no understanding of the theological issues, but in fact there was no unanimity at Nicaea. After the council, the bishops went on teaching as they had before, and the Arian crisis continued for another sixty years. Arius and his followers fought back and managed to regain imperial favor. Athanasius was exiled no fewer than five times. It was very difficult to make his creed stick" (pp. 110-111).

The ongoing disagreements were at times violent and bloody. Of the aftermath of the Council of Nicaea, noted historian Will Durant writes, "Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome" ( The Story of Civilization, Vol. 4: The Age of Faith, 1950, p. 8). Atrociously, while claiming to be Christian many believers fought and slaughtered one another over their differing views of God!

Of the following decades, Professor Harold Brown, cited earlier, writes: "During the middle decades of this century, from 340 to 380, the history of doctrine looks more like the history of court and church intrigues and social unrest . . . The central doctrines hammered out in this period often appear to have been put through by intrigue or mob violence rather than by the common consent of Christendom led by the Holy Spirit" (p. 119).

Debate shifts to the nature of the Holy Spirit

Disagreements soon centered around another issue, the nature of the Holy Spirit. In that regard, the statement issued at the Council of Nicaea said simply, "We believe in the Holy Spirit." This "seemed to have been added to Athanasius's creed almost as an afterthought," writes Karen Armstrong. "People were confused about the Holy Spirit. Was it simply a synonym for God or was it something more?" (p. 115).

Professor Ryrie, also cited earlier,writes, "In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor [today central Turkey] gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity" (p. 65). They proposed an idea that was a step beyond Athanasius' view—that God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit were coequal and together in one being, yet also distinct from one another.

These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all "trained in Greek philosophy" (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs (see "Greek Philosophy's Influence on the Trinity Doctrine," beginning on page 14).

In their view, as Karen Armstrong explains, "the Trinity only made sense as a mystical or spiritual experience . . . It was not a logical or intellectual formulation but an imaginative paradigm that confounded reason. Gregory of Nazianzus made this clear when he explained that contemplation of the Three in One induced a profound and overwhelming emotion that confounded thought and intellectual clarity.

"'No sooner do I conceive of the One than I am illumined by the splendor of the Three; no sooner do I distinguish Three than I am carried back into the One. When I think of any of the Three, I think of him as the whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking escapes me'" (p. 117). Little wonder that, as Armstrong concludes, "For many Western Christians . . . the Trinity is simply baffling" (ibid.).

Ongoing disputes lead to the Council of Constantinople

In the year 381, 44 years after Constantine's death, Emperor Theodosius the Great convened the Council of Constantinople (today Istanbul, Turkey) to resolve these disputes. Gregory of Nazianzus, recently appointed as archbishop of Constantinople, presided over the council and urged the adoption of his view of the Holy Spirit.

Historian Charles Freeman states: "Virtually nothing is known of the theological debates of the council of 381, but Gregory was certainly hoping to get some acceptance of his belief that the Spirit was consubstantial with the Father [meaning that the persons are of the same being, as substance in this context denotes individual quality].

"Whether he dealt with the matter clumsily or whether there was simply no chance of consensus, the 'Macedonians,' bishops who refused to accept the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, left the council . . . Typically, Gregory berated the bishops for preferring to have a majority rather than simply accepting 'the Divine Word' of the Trinity on his authority" ( A.D. 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State, 2008, p. 96).

Gregory soon became ill and had to withdraw from the council. Who would preside now? "So it was that one Nectarius, an elderly city senator who had been a popular prefect in the city as a result of his patronage of the games, but who was still not a baptized Christian, was selected . . . Nectarius appeared to know no theology, and he had to be initiated into the required faith before being baptized and consecrated" (Freeman, pp. 97-98).

Bizarrely, a man who up to this point wasn't a Christian was appointed to preside over a major church council tasked with determining what it would teach regarding the nature of God!

The Trinity becomes official doctrine

The teaching of the three Cappadocian theologians "made it possible for the Council of Constantinople (381) to affirm the divinity of the Holy Spirit, which up to that point had nowhere been clearly stated, not even in Scripture" ( The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, "God," p. 568).

The council adopted a statement that translates into English as, in part: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages . . . And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets . . ." The statement also affirmed belief "in one holy, catholic [meaning in this context universal, whole or complete] and apostolic Church . . ."

With this declaration in 381, which would become known as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the Trinity as generally understood today became the official belief and teaching concerning the nature of God.

Theology professor Richard Hanson observes that a result of the council's decision "was to reduce the meanings of the word 'God' from a very large selection of alternatives to one only," such that "when Western man today says 'God' he means the one, sole exclusive [Trinitarian] God and nothing else" ( Studies in Christian Antiquity, 1985,pp. 243-244).

Thus, Emperor Theodosius—who himself had been baptized only a year before convening the council—was, like Constantine nearly six decades earlier, instrumental in establishing major church doctrine. As historian Charles Freeman notes: "It is important to remember that Theodosius had no theological background of his own and that he put in place as dogma a formula containing intractable philosophical problems of which he would have been unaware. In effect, the emperor's laws had silenced the debate when it was still unresolved" (p. 103).

Other beliefs about the nature of God banned

Now that a decision had been reached, Theodosius would tolerate no dissenting views. He issued his own edict that read: "We now order that all churches are to be handed over to the bishops who profess Father, Son and Holy Spirit of a single majesty, of the same glory, of one splendor, who establish no difference by sacrilegious separation, but (who affirm) the order of the Trinity by recognizing the Persons and uniting the Godhead" (quoted by Richard Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God, 1999, p. 223).

Another edict from Theodosius went further in demanding adherence to the new teaching: "Let us believe the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgement, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles [assemblies] the name of churches.

"They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation, and the second the punishment which our authority, in accordance with the will of Heaven, shall decide to inflict" (reproduced in Documents of the Christian Church, Henry Bettenson, editor, 1967, p. 22).

Thus we see that a teaching that was foreign to Jesus Christ, never taught by the apostles and unknown to the other biblical writers, was locked into place and the true biblical revelation about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was locked out. Any who disagreed were, in accordance with the edicts of the emperor and church authorities, branded heretics and dealt with accordingly. Trinity doctrine decided by trial and error.

This unusual chain of events is why theology professors Anthony and Richard Hanson would summarize the story in their book Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith by noting that the adoption of the Trinity doctrine came as a result of "a process of theological exploration which lasted at least three hundred years . . . In fact it was a process of trial and error (almost of hit and miss), in which the error was by no means all confined to the unorthodox . . . It would be foolish to represent the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as having been achieved by any other way" (1980, p. 172).

They then conclude: "This was a long, confused, process whereby different schools of thought in the Church worked out for themselves, and then tried to impose on others, their answer to the question, 'How divine is Jesus Christ?' . . . If ever there was a controversy decided by the method of trial and error, it was this one" (p. 175).

Anglican churchman and Oxford University lecturer K.E. Kirk revealingly writes of the adoption of the doctrine of the Trinity: "The theological and philosophical vindication of the divinity of the Spirit begins in the fourth century; we naturally turn to the writers of that period to discover what grounds they have for their belief. To our surprise, we are forced to admit that they have none . . .

"This failure of Christian theology . . . to produce logical justification of the cardinal point in its trinitarian doctrine is of the greatest possible significance. We are forced, even before turning to the question of the vindication of the doctrine by experience, to ask ourselves whether theology or philosophy has ever produced any reasons why its belief should be Trinitarian" ("The Evolution of the Doctrine of the Trinity," published in Essays on the Trinity and the Incarnation, A.E.J. Rawlinson, editor, 1928, pp. 221-222). Why believe a teaching that isn't biblical?

This, in brief, is the amazing story of how the doctrine of the Trinity came to be introduced—and how those who refused to accept it came to be branded as heretics or unbelievers.

But should we really base our view of God on a doctrine that isn't spelled out in the Bible, that wasn't formalized until three centuries after the time of Jesus Christ and the apostles, that was debated and argued for decades (not to mention for centuries since), that was imposed by religious councils presided over by novices or nonbelievers and that was "decided by the method of trial and error"?

Of course not. We should instead look to the Word of God—not to ideas of men—to see how our Creator reveals Himself!


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: god; jesus; origins; trinity
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To: DouglasKC; boatbums

Jesus Christ promised He would be with us always, even to the end of the world. He also promised the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church ( this would include Constantine ) so the burden will be on those who claim a “counterfeit” Christianity arose, to show who the “true” Christians were in opposition to the counterfeits. can we name two “true” Christians in the second century, what about the 5th century? history is not kind to these type of false claims my friend, i look forward to reading this excellent article of yours. let me give you some free advice, if it claims Constantine affected Church doctrine in any way, don’t bother making a fool of yourself by posting it!


261 posted on 04/16/2013 7:56:24 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
how do i explain it? Jesus is God, the Holy Sirit is God. they both act in a manner to do the will of God. no suprise here.

One poster says that the reference to John 14:26 proves that the "helper" is different then jesus. You say they're the same. I can't win this one despite John saying precisely and explicitly that the helper is none other than Jesus Christ.

262 posted on 04/16/2013 7:56:51 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

“whom the Father will send in my name”

“whom”.....doesn’t sound like a power or force.

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. they are both God, so it is not suprising that they both help sinners, that they both pray for us, that they both do the will of God.

tell me, can you lie to a power or force?
can a power or force intercede for you?


263 posted on 04/16/2013 8:06:04 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: count-your-change

“Despite your assertions.... .the Messiah is not called Almighty God, who is the Father”


Despite your assertions, the Messiah is called the Almighty God, who is the Son.

“But the Messiah is called the “Mighty God” of Isa. 9:6. Jesus said even the judges of Israel were properly called gods so calling the messiah a Mighty God isn’t contradictory to Isa. 44:6.”


El-Gibbor is a recognized name of God. Here it is again one chapter later:

Isa_10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Do you suppose Isaiah, one chapter later, uses the same phrase to refer again to a human being? It’s ridiculous to apply it to a man.

Joseph Ben Uziel, 30 years before the time of Christ, in his paraphrase of Isaiah retains the same meaning:

“The prophet said to the house of David,
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given,
and He has taken the law upon Himself to keep it.
His name is called from eternity. Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days.” (The Chaldee paraphrase on the prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uziel] tr. by C.W.H. Pauli)

Let’s read the scripture Jesus referenced:

Psa 82:6-7 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

They are called “gods” in the sense that they sit in the judgment seat of Israel, representing God. But, they are told that they are men, and shall die like men, in the scripture Christ references.

And then Christ says:

Joh 10:35-38 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (37) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

This is an argument of how much greater the Messiah is than those men who merely received the word, and were judged as men, but the Messiah is the Son of God who was sanctified and sent into the world. How much more appropriate is it to say “I and the Father are one” for the Messiah which the Jews sought to stone Him for? It is self-evident that Christ claimed to be God:

Joh 8:57-59 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? (58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So, how many people can claim the title “I am,” the verb in the present tense, telling us that not only was he BEFORE Abraham, but he was before Abraham because of continuous existence. IOW, he is from everlasting to everlasting.

Exo_3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

“I feel no need to defend arguments I haven’t made.”


Oh, your first act of righteousness! Those who blaspheme against God habitually should keep silent.


264 posted on 04/16/2013 8:06:10 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Thank you so much for sharing those excerpts from Barnes' commentary!

If I were to comment on those Scriptures in the vernacular, I would simply say:

The Law of Identity (A is A and NOT B) does apply to the Creator of the Law of Identity.


265 posted on 04/16/2013 8:10:51 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


266 posted on 04/16/2013 8:13:24 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Alamo-Girl

“The Law of Identity (A is A and NOT B) does apply to the Creator of the Law of Identity.”


I agree.

Joh 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the beginning, A. And A was with B, and A is B. The same was in the beginning with B (IOW, in the beginning was B, and B was with A, and B is A. The same was in the beginning with A).

Now you know your As and Bs. Thanks for your time.


267 posted on 04/16/2013 8:13:41 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
You're quite welcome, dear Greeting_Puny_Humans!
268 posted on 04/16/2013 8:22:03 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Zionist Conspirator

....”Mmm, mmm . . . historicists vs. restorationists”...

(chuckling) ;)


269 posted on 04/16/2013 8:25:36 PM PDT by caww
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To: DouglasKC; one Lord one faith one baptism
"One poster says that the reference to John 14:26 proves that the "helper" is different then jesus."

The "helper" is the Paraclete (Greek - parakletos παράκλητος, Latin - paracletus). The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you

270 posted on 04/16/2013 8:40:26 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
The "helper" is the Paraclete (Greek - parakletos παράκλητος, Latin - paracletus). The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit. Peace be with you

Yes, but that same term is used in 1 John where John says specifically that it's Jesus Christ:

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

271 posted on 04/16/2013 8:46:56 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
I'm in the same camp as others who humbly, and rightfully, admit that there are certain things about our immutable God that mortal, fallible and corrupt human minds cannot but scrape the surface on understanding Him. Martin Luther said:

This word (Trinity) signifies that there are three persons in God. It is a heavenly mystery which the world cannot understand. I have often told you that this, as well as every other article of faith, must not be based upon reason or comparison, but must be understood and established by means of passages from the Scriptures, for God has the only perfect knowledge and knows how to speak concerning himself.

The great universities have invented manifold distinctions, dreams and fictions by means of which they would explain the Holy Trinity, and have made fools of themselves. We shall therefore quote only passages from the Scriptures in order to determine and establish the divinity of Christ. In the first place, we quote from the New Testament, where we find many proof texts; for instance, John I, I-3 : "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made." Now if he is not made, but is himself the Maker, he must indeed be God. John also says afterwards: "And the Word became flesh."

Therefore we cling to the Scriptures, those passages which testify of the Trinity of God, and we say: I know very well that in God there are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; but how they can be one I do not know, neither should I know it. (Sermons of Martin Luther Volume 2 (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2000), vol. 2.1 p. 406-407))

272 posted on 04/16/2013 8:53:39 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: DouglasKC; Mr. Lucky
Oh and Doug, that was incorrect of you to distort what I said. your misquote was your UCG beliefs are also Mormon-like when it states Douglas, your United Church of God downgrades the Holy Spirit as no longer being God.

when I actually said your UCG beliefs are also Mormon-like when it states that Belief that the core of Jesus Christ's message was the coming of a literal earthly Kingdom and that people who are 'saved' will not go to heaven, but will live and rule eternally with Jesus Christ on earth after his second coming, and will subsequently share rulership over the entire universe as part of the 'God Family'.

Now, the downgrading of the Holy Spirit, which IS what the UCG does, correct? that is not Mormon-like but quite frankly implausible -- if Jesus said "I will send another", He is specifically intoning that the Holy Spirit is not just a figment, but, while it is part of the ONE Godhead, has an individual place.

273 posted on 04/16/2013 9:07:04 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
It’s important for everyone to note that the “church” DouglasKC represents is a non-Christian religious cult,........

.......claim that they alone possess the Holy Spirit due to their rejection of the Trinity,

...... embrace of dietary laws and Jewish festival observance,

...... denial of everlasting torment in hell,

...... affirmation of the possibility of salvation after death,

...... their doctrine that the Holy Spirit must be passed on by right-believing ministers of the UCG by direct physical contact, amongst many other disturbing facts.

...... believe that they are the one true church of God, and WE are all members of a counterfeit religion.

The UCG’s view, therefore, is a thinly veiled polytheism, very similar to the Mormon concept which argues that they themselves are monotheistic, because there is one Godhead,

...... that the Father literally had sex with a goddess wife and produced the Son.

They make the same argument against “strict monotheism,” and ‘veil it’ with the same concept of strict devotion to just one God, but not that there are not any other gods.

...........................................................

Yes, I agree....the progression of the topics selected to engage people on FR ,(I've noted thus far), evidences the doctrines are being carefully ‘set’ (baited) and folks carefully lured into what is presented as interesting conversation...but notice the desire to “control” the conversations as soon as they veer from the intended desire....and mingled with enough truth to maintain the conversation and flow to the desired end.

These are tactics well understood by those familiar not only with cult and false religions but also work with those who escape from them....there are patterns. Often masking themselves by using Christian verbiage and phrases.....

Note that the topic “Trinity” is one of the foundational beliefs they deny....so of course the “tactic” is to get people engaged in order to create doubt and then slam dunk in the moment of weakness.

We are warned not to be ignorant of the enemy of mens souls devises...unfortunately many well meaning people not only fall into these cults and religions.....but because they do ‘believe’ they have the “real thing”...the desire to instruct others into their web is almost overwhelming. Thus they pop up all over the net.

Jesus said it would be so....unfortunately many today are primed for it. Thank you for the warning....I'm sure that those who are well versed in the scripture and grounded in the truth of the scriptures on Fr can handle this guy....and all those who come after.... Did you ever notice that these people always try to set the debate by telling everyone to be "nice"? Jesus had some very strong words for the Pharisees and Sadducee's..."snakes" and a few other choice words.

274 posted on 04/16/2013 9:07:21 PM PDT by caww
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To: DouglasKC
"Yes, but that same term is used in 1 John where John says specifically that it's Jesus Christ"

The term is the same but in heaven Christ remains our advocate, the one mediator. In John 14 Jesus acknowledges He is a Paraclete, but says another one will be sent.

Peace be with you

275 posted on 04/16/2013 9:07:48 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: allmendream
well the UCG, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses etc. all have the same error in that respect

The British Israelism was an 18th century ploy to justify British rule and it is genetically, linguistically and historically false.

276 posted on 04/16/2013 9:09:08 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: DouglasKC; Mr. Lucky
Sorry Doug, but that's not an accusation -- from the very website where you quote this article, http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/, one sees God 'the Father' and Jesus Christ are viewed as distinct 'God beings' in the 'God family'. and also do you deny that the UCG states that the belief that the Holy Spirit is the spirit/power of God and of Christ Jesus rather than a separate person in the Godhead.
277 posted on 04/16/2013 9:10:49 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: DouglasKC; Mr. Lucky
Cronos: however, it is true that your United Church of God downgrades the Holy Spirit as no longer being God. -- correct?

Doug: here's what I say....nobody is downgrading the holy spirit. The holy spirit as a separate entity in the Godhead didn't become so until 300 years after death of Christ.

So you do admit that your UCG says the Holy Spirit is not God.

278 posted on 04/16/2013 9:12:51 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: DouglasKC; dartuser
if you read the article you can well see how long it took for the concept of the trinity to be developed.

The author of the article is flat out wrong. Not only did Jesus teach it, the Apostles taught it, the New Testament is easily shown to teach it and many early church fathers taught as proved by their writings. For example:

Ignatius has some other very great and meaningful statements on the Deity of Christ. Ignatius of Antioch, on the Deity of Christ, calls Jesus God 9 times (2 of them are less clear) in 7 letters (ca. 110 AD) “Jesus Christ our God” Ephesians , Preface – “suffering by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God . . . “Ephesians 15:3, Ephesians 18:2, Romans Preface- 2 times, Romans 3:3, Trallians 7, and Smyrneans 10:1 are less clear. (because of textual variants). Ignatius speaks of Christ’s blood as “God's blood” Ephesians 1:1. He calls Jesus “God incarnate” Ephesians 7:2. In Jesus “God appeared in human form” Ephesians 19:3. Believing Protestants can appreciate these statements and see that the early church was firm in its belief in the Deity of Christ and the Trinity, and the evidence from Ignatius here around 110 AD, shows that the Deity of Christ and the Trinity did not suddenly appear in 325 AD, as many enemies of the faith claim, like Muslims and modern skeptics and cults and others who write popular books, such as the Divinci Code. http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search?q=the+deity+of+the+holy+spirit

279 posted on 04/16/2013 9:15:36 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: DouglasKC; Mr. Lucky
Doug: here's what I say....nobody is downgrading the holy spirit. The holy spirit as a separate entity in the Godhead didn't become so until 300 years after death of Christ. . I'm expressing the point of view of the first disciples...that's all.

Actually, you are expressing your view, as Acts patently shows how the Apostles followed Christ's teachings by baptising "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" -- 3 separate.

your UCG's attempt to say "in the name of the Father and the Son" denies Christ's words...

280 posted on 04/16/2013 9:16:03 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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