Rumor Rumor Every Where, Nor Any Fact To Think? [Blog assesses 'LDS Church...not true' revelations]

On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church.

Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting. That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact. I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is. Grant told me: "I even find some of it hard to believe. But the report is a chance to shake the tree and see what will come of it..."

Many of the speculative claims contradict some of the less probable or more probable claims. For example, if the GA never heard one of the apostles ever admit directly to him that they did not believe, then how could he know they talk amongst themselves about the falsity of the church? How could he know how they justify staying with their sure knowledge of its falseness? How could he know they get paid so much hush money? (Well, they could have talked about forgivable loans/gifts without referring to it as hush money.) How could he know they would rather die than to admit it’s false?

For these contradictory reasons, I have place some claims in the speculative group.

However, I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims.

1) an unnamed source who works with land development told me independently that properties are purchased by the LDS church for apostles through a developer named Ivory Homes LTD.

3) A COB employee who handles financial work has seen evidence suggesting payments made for the apostles and others are part of a loan they receive which have no payment schedules correlated (i.e., gifts disguised as loans).

4) MT’s current managing editor has said that Apostle Holland told him that as a new apostle he was at the “beck and call” of senior apostles who took up most of his time when he was a junior.

5) A current exmormon who was being groomed to be a general authority said he was told by a COB employee who worked with him that the employee’s number one role was to get the man “church broke” (the first time the man had heard that term).

6) a COB lawyer affirmed that all high level church employees and volunteers who have access to any financial information at the church sign non-disclosure agreements (NDA).

7) The NDAs are life-long binding agreements whose violations have strict civil penalties and can result in having any and all property used by the employee/worker/volunteer removed immediately; force repayment of all past and current considerations, benefits and perks retained or enjoyed by the employee; revoke any and all associations, contracts (book deals) or other financial arrangements owned, leased or facilitated by church companies; and potentially revoke academic or other honors bestowed upon the employee or family of the employee which are assigned to them through their association with church companies, universities or other institutions.

8) Reported by various persons (former members in public forums) is that family members of high-level authorities in the church receive many financial and vocational opportunities of employment or business dealings because of their father/brother/grandfather’s church ranking.

9) There is legal action occurring abroad against the church which may force the financial information to open further and reveal more about the truth behind these rumors. Stay tuned. (these things take time and legal funds.)

10) Grant Palmer and Tom Phillips have been informed that likely all general authorities receive their second anointing which is another covenant to keep loyal to the church and not reveal its secrets; though not as binding as a legal NDA, it is much like a fraternity of life-long business and political associates who pledge at Ivy League.

11) In June or July, there is rumored to be another foreign GA that will come forward and even in an interview disclose additional information on these matters. Stay tuned.

My thoughts... How likely is it that all the apostles are absolute doubters? Each of them individually may fall in the spectrum of deluded conned man or full-out evil conman. But to believe that they are all deluded says that every last one of them is ridiculously idiotic about the reality they are supposedly defending. Of course, on the flip-side, one can argue, if they're all evil liars, that's a difficult-to-believe conspiracy. Many will argue that such a conspiracy is unlikely to keep a lid on. Conspiracy is a bad word. This is a corporation with corporate trade secrets. These kind of secrets are kept all the time at the top of most large, diverse companies, with the knowledge compartmentalized with those having a need to know. Even CEOs do not know all the trade secrets of the company because such details are far beyond a single human capacity to know. The kind of deals and financial arrangements made in any corporation is held tight. Secrecy in other (government) organizations is obviously not compromised as well.

First of all, these men do not actually control the finances of the church. They're at its mercy. Much of their adult lives have been spun up and dedicated into one system. They are running the front-face of a massive corporation. The machinery is beyond them. But the rock-stardom it gives them reaches far into their extended family. They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all.

They have a lot of perks. They have fans. They have trips. They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy. They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand. Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.

Not one of them is actually that talented at this late point in life in scriptural scholarship or academic studies. While they may not need it to write a church dismantling tome, they will need the credibility when one of them alone stands, as an old (potentially senile) man, against a unanimous quorum. Without significant credibility, charges of senility will absolutely ring true for 99% of members.

A single book deal exposing it will fall flat. The family of that man will be utterly disgraced. The business they built and reputation they have will be dismantled. Not the church.

Better to stay the course and slowly reform it without upsetting the family apple cart. I'll post more rumors here in this blog as they come to me in the next week...

Ain't we special!!!

MORMON

ATTITUDES OF SUPERIORITY

  1. I’m Superior; I have a special gift of the holy Ghost -- you don’t!
  2. I’m Superior; I have God’s true priesthood power -- you don’t!
  3. I’m Superior; I can go in God’s secret Temple -- you can’t!
  4. I’m Superior; I’ve been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- you’re just normal!
  5. I’m Superior; I’ll have my family with me in heaven -- you’ll be with strangers!
  6. I’m Superior; I’m becoming a God -- you aren’t!
  7. I’m Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours don’t.
  8. I’m Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures).
  9. I’m Superior; I don’t HAVE a creed - I’ve got 13 Articles of Faith.
10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly.
11. I’m Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. —                           -- You can’t.
12. I’m Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics --

-- You’re a hideous narrow-minded bigot, who is persecuting me by practicing discrimination by saying I'm not a Christian.
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't.
14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't
15. I’m Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself.
16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't.
17. I’m Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you don’t.
18. I’m Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you don’t ;so you can’t.
19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't.
20. I’m Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably -- You’re on your own; when you get to wherever you’re going!
21. I’m Superior; I’m going to hie to Kolob -- you’re going to who knows where.
22. I’m Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you don’t.
23. I’m Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple

-- You have nothing but a stupid cross.
24. I’m Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty.
25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!)

26. I'm superior; I have the "higher law" -- everyone else "lives under the "lesser law' because I say so...(over and over).

Revision 46.5

Semi-Official creed of the EXclusive club of Freeper Flying Inmans.

All rights liable to be abused.

The Bible is full of truth.

Many people who say the Bible is full of truth say it means different things. Two people who say something means different things can't both be right in most cases. Which is my point. All these people that have different versions of what the “Truth” of the Bible is are not necessarily evil, just wrong. Even though people have different truths they have some truths in common. For instance, I can probably be comfortable in saying we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. While I may believe He has dark brown hair and you may believe He has black hair we can't both be right, but, does it really make any difference. If you tell me I'm going to Hell because I don't believe that Christ has black hair should I care? I believe we can take nearly any two believers and find something they will disagree about and disagree about it strongly. They will both say the Bible says they are right, that it is plain truth from the Bible but they both can't be right. Regardless of what they think, the Bible is right but the plain truth of the Holy Bible can't always be discerned. Enough of the truth can be discerned by me to know enough about Jesus Christ to know He is Lord. To know He lived in the Flesh and was dead, buried and arose from the dead to live again and that He still lives and offers that life to me and everybody else. There may be much about how we get there that you and I would disagree about but those disagreements to me are not as important as the truth we agree upon.

The interpretations of the Holy Bible are constantly changing as new historical knowledge is acquired. Perhaps instead of saying interpretations I should say “understanding”.

I have not said my Mormon friends are right or wrong. That in my opinion is not my job. I do know however that they have a sincere love of The Lord, they, at least many of them, follow Him to the best of their understanding. How can I criticize that when they are trying so hard and being successful in many ways. Many of us could learn a lot from the Mormons.

Much that is quoted from Elsie are quotes that have been proven and admitted to be false for over a century but even if true mean nothing. If the Holy Spirit touches the hearts of The Saints and they live close to The Lord then more power to them. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have been dead a long time, but what they left behind is an organization that does good in the world and in my opinion brings people to Christ. While the Christ they go to may look different to me and you, it still, I think, the same Christ.

"Forgive me for writing so late, I wish I could spend more time at this but unfortunately have things to do in life beside have fun in these discussions."

... Likewise.

"You snidely say “They have feelings”."

... No snideness at all. Just a fact. Mormonism is based entirely on feelings as a substitute for propositional truth. In fact, without taking people off the solid ground of truth and onto subjective feelings, no one would convert.

"Isn’t that all any of us have, isn’t that what faith is after all. If you start looking for facts then you are need to look somewhere besides Christendom. Most religions are not about facts, evidence or even logic."

... Turn over any spade of dirt in the Holy Land and you will find objective evidence for the Holy Bible. There are hundreds of thousands or millions of artifacts - none of which contradict the Scriptures, but instead support it.
... Turn over every spade of dirt in America, and you will find no evidence for mormonism - not bones from millions, no metal works, no archeology of buildings, no metalworks, no cureloms."

Why isn’t there a Noah’s ark."

... One artifact. It won't be found until it is - assuming the wood is not decayed. Judaism and Christianity are not dependent on finding the ark.

... Worldwide flood: evidence is there.

"I’ll bet it was pretty tough getting all the animals on earth in that boat."

... Which is why it was a miracle. According to Scripture, they came to Noah. Not tough at all.

"The reality is that the Mormons have a number of witnesses of whom there are birth certificates and death certificates and grave yards with them in it that swear they saw the plates and angels."

... You better keep up. They didn't see anything. Here is some actual evidence that examines the so called witnesses - their character first, then what they actually "saw". Read carefully friend... this plus your feelings is the foundation for mormonism...

Character of the 11 Witnesses
Joseph Smith claims that after he translated the plates, he returned them to the angel Moroni. Therefore, there is no way to verify the veracity of the plates or Smith's translation. Smith's only defense of his account is the eleven men who signed statements claiming to have seen the golden plates. Therefore, the credibility of Smith's account rests on the testimony of these eleven witnesses. There are three key witnesses who claim to have seen the angel show the golden plates to them. The remaining eight allege to have seen the plates but not the angel. The LDS church asserts these men never denied their testimony. However, when we examine the lives of the witnesses, we find they were untrustworthy, wavering, and gullible witnesses.
Six of the eleven witnesses, including the three key witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the church. Former Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson summed up the legacy of the eleven witnesses this way. "Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell--one even helped plot his death. . . . The wolves among our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made a similar statement [in 1949]."{6}
Let us first examine the character of the three key witnesses since their testimony is the most important. In a letter dated December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith stated this about the three key witnesses and John Whitmer, one of the eight. "John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention."{7}
Martin Harris' testimony shows him to be a gullible and unstable man. He changed his religious conviction approximately thirteen times. He had joined several Christian denominations and other cult groups that include the Universalists, Strangites, and the Shakers. {8}(Ankerberg, 196) In Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith gave revelations in which he denounces Martin Harris and calls him a "wicked man."{9} The Mormon leaders published an article in the Elder's Journal, a Mormon publication edited by Joseph Smith, in which they accused Harris guilty of "swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, drinking, with every species of debauchery. . ." (Elders Journal, August, 1838, 59).{10} Here the leaders of the Mormon Church strongly criticize the character of Harris.
Oliver Cowdery was also shown to be a very gullible man. He was led astray by Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses who himself claimed to have divine revelations from his own seer stone. Although Joseph Smith denounced Hiram as a false teacher, Smith stated "to our grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive. . . . Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain 'revelations' . . . all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's House, . . ."{11} Despite Smith's condemnation, Oliver Cowdery joined Page's movement. Not only was he a gullible man, he was also indicted on several accounts of fraudulent business practices. The Mormon Church in a letter wrote, "During the career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer's bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very strong character that you are at this very time engaged with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs . . ."{12} Cowdery was eventually excommunicated and he later joined the Methodist Church.
David Whitmer wrote, "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter- day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. . . . About the same time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a number of the brethren who came out, with their families, all of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out; . . ."{13} Here David Whitmer denounced the Mormon Church and encouraged people to follow his example and the example of the other witnesses and leave the church.
Joseph Smith in response attacked the character of David Whitmer. Smith stated, "God suffered such kind of beings to afflict Job . . . this poor man who professes to be much of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David Whitmer, to forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel: and this ass not being of the same kind as Balaam's . . . he brays out cursing instead of blessings. Poor ass!"{14}
The character and life of the eleven witnesses to the Book of Mormon are very different from the Apostles of Christ. None of the Apostles wavered in their defense of Christ, even though all suffered and most died for their faith. The Apostles remained consistent in their teaching and never fell into any type of apostasy. Their lives were marked by honesty and integrity. They were never indicted for any criminal activity except for preaching Christ. The character of the Book of Mormon's eleven witnesses does not strengthen Smith's defense but cast further doubt on its authenticity.
Probe Ministry website quote

What did the so-called witnesses actually see??? Not much!

"I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church & weighed the evidence for & against it loth (sic) to give it up - but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundation was sapped & the entire superstructure fell in heap of ruins.
"I was followed by W Parrish, Luke Johnson & John Boynton [Boyington] all of who concurred with me, after we were done speaking M Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of [him/me?] but should have let it passed as it was... (Stephen Burnett letter to Lyman E. Johnson dated April 15, 1838. Typed transcript from Joseph Smith Papers, Letter book, April 20, 1837 - February 9, 1843, microfilm reel 2, pp. 64-66, LDS archives.)

... Total house of cards, by men of low character, most of whom left mormonism, having claimed to see things, but not seeing anything.

"You misstate what they believe and I suspect you know exactly what you are doing. They do not believe that anything created and non-eternal can become God."

... Pardon me. I thought you believed any mormon male, who meets worthiness requirements can become a god????? Are you denying this it a tenant of your mormon faith???

... And Christ, who was created as a spirit child. He was not god, according to mormonism, but later became a god.

... Your words contradict the teaching of your faith.

"They believe all life is eternal in some form."

... That which is created has a beginning. It is not eternal - without beginning or end.

"They believe that the children of God can become heirs with Christ of all His Father has. If you have everything that God has then you must need be by definition “god”! The Apostles taught this same doctrine."

... Christ never said you would have all Christ has - especially His divine nature. Cults teach this, as well as Satan.

"What rudeness you ascribe to God who is the Father of us all."

... The crudeness is strictly from mormonism that makes God into a creature.

"Just how again was Jesus “created” in mortality? You believe that it was some rutting instinct? God is our Father, that is the title He uses, He does not call Himself our Creator but our Father. Fatherhood implies many things, I see nothing ugly in those things."

... No evidence in Scripture ever indicates God had sex that resulted in the earthly body of Christ. It was a miracle of the Holy Spirit.

"I’m not sure I criticized anybody, much less any ex-Mormons. Saying someone has an ax to grind is not a criticism just an expression of an attribute."

"Christianity is a religion of faith, not facts. Christianity is a religion of feelings, not facts."

... Faith is only as good as the object you place it in. The falsehood of all cults is the wrong foundation for faith.

"Christianity is a religion of Christ, Christ commanded us to love all men, even Mormons, even Catholics and even Protestants."

"Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are part of all men and so are those that come after them. When you question their beliefs and motives you are accusing them of evil. I’ve met a lot of Mormons, I haven’t met the evil ones yet."

... This is because Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are evil. They have led millions (potentially) to hell by substituting a false Christ, a false gospel. Individual mormons who are trapped in mormonism are victims of the cult. They are (largely) nice people. The doctrine of their faith is evil.

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