Rumor Rumor Every Where, Nor Any Fact To Think? [Blog assesses 'LDS Church...not true' revelations]

Mormondisclosures.blogspot.com ^ | April 9, 2013

[Colofornian]

On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church.

Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting. That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact. I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is. Grant told me: "I even find some of it hard to believe. But the report is a chance to shake the tree and see what will come of it..."

Here are some of the statements and claims, bulleted.

Most probable factual claims

• The mission president and GA wish to remain unnamed/anonymous
• The GA went to MormonThink.com regularly and there found a link to Palmer’s book.
• The GA and his wife read Grant’s Insider and determined neither the church nor its foundational claims are true.
• The GA gave the book to the mission president, who is also a closet doubter.
• The GA and MP have met with Palmer three times since October 23 (a month after Mormonthink was bantered in national media).
• They are now meeting monthly (hopefully watching their collective asses now that LDS-COB know Grant is meeting these unnamed high level dissenters).
• None of the apostles have ever admitted directly to him that they did not believe.
• The apostles are entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church.
• The anonymous blog is named “journey of loyal dissent” (apparently posted by Christopher Ralph, UK member/dissenter).
• The GA and mission president both attend church each Sunday and feel hypocritical and trapped.

Less probable factual claims

• The GA had one-on-one conversations with apostles sometime in the past.
• The primary consideration of election of a new apostle is being “church broken” and fully loyal to the other apostles.
• The six senior apostles mentor the junior six who are told to obey, listen and learn.
• The six senior apostles run the show in the quorum.
• The Q12 is quite isolated from the several Q70s, which used to enjoy more contact with apostles when there was only one Q70.
• The first presidency was involved in the decision of Grant Palmer’s disciplinary court.

Highly speculative

• Each new member of the Quorum of the 12 apostles receives one-million dollars for financial obligations.
• The million dollars is called a “gift”.
• It takes two or three years for a new apostle to learn the church is in fact false.
• D. F. Uchtdorf took longer because of his non-Utah heritage.
• The GA has learned indirectly by interaction with apostles that eventually they all learn the church is not true.
• Apostles talk amongst themselves about how the church is false. (It’s not clear how this could be known)
• The apostles obedience/loyalty to each other are part of the reasons keeping them from blowing the whistle on the church.
• Apostles justify staying the course because people need the church. (It’s not clear how this could be known)
• Apostles do not like to discuss truth issues with Q70s members.
• The apostles would rather die defending the church than admit it is false.
• The church is a weakened dam about to burst with apostates.

Many of the speculative claims contradict some of the less probable or more probable claims. For example, if the GA never heard one of the apostles ever admit directly to him that they did not believe, then how could he know they talk amongst themselves about the falsity of the church? How could he know how they justify staying with their sure knowledge of its falseness? How could he know they get paid so much hush money? (Well, they could have talked about forgivable loans/gifts without referring to it as hush money.) How could he know they would rather die than to admit it’s false?

For these contradictory reasons, I have place some claims in the speculative group.

However, I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims.

1) an unnamed source who works with land development told me independently that properties are purchased by the LDS church for apostles through a developer named Ivory Homes LTD.

2) One such home is still listed under Ivory, but presumably will be possessed by Apostle David Bednar soon.

3) A COB employee who handles financial work has seen evidence suggesting payments made for the apostles and others are part of a loan they receive which have no payment schedules correlated (i.e., gifts disguised as loans).

4) MT’s current managing editor has said that Apostle Holland told him that as a new apostle he was at the “beck and call” of senior apostles who took up most of his time when he was a junior.

5) A current exmormon who was being groomed to be a general authority said he was told by a COB employee who worked with him that the employee’s number one role was to get the man “church broke” (the first time the man had heard that term).

6) a COB lawyer affirmed that all high level church employees and volunteers who have access to any financial information at the church sign non-disclosure agreements (NDA).

7) The NDAs are life-long binding agreements whose violations have strict civil penalties and can result in having any and all property used by the employee/worker/volunteer removed immediately; force repayment of all past and current considerations, benefits and perks retained or enjoyed by the employee; revoke any and all associations, contracts (book deals) or other financial arrangements owned, leased or facilitated by church companies; and potentially revoke academic or other honors bestowed upon the employee or family of the employee which are assigned to them through their association with church companies, universities or other institutions.

8) Reported by various persons (former members in public forums) is that family members of high-level authorities in the church receive many financial and vocational opportunities of employment or business dealings because of their father/brother/grandfather’s church ranking.

9) There is legal action occurring abroad against the church which may force the financial information to open further and reveal more about the truth behind these rumors. Stay tuned. (these things take time and legal funds.)

10) Grant Palmer and Tom Phillips have been informed that likely all general authorities receive their second anointing which is another covenant to keep loyal to the church and not reveal its secrets; though not as binding as a legal NDA, it is much like a fraternity of life-long business and political associates who pledge at Ivy League.

11) In June or July, there is rumored to be another foreign GA that will come forward and even in an interview disclose additional information on these matters. Stay tuned.

My thoughts... How likely is it that all the apostles are absolute doubters? Each of them individually may fall in the spectrum of deluded conned man or full-out evil conman. But to believe that they are all deluded says that every last one of them is ridiculously idiotic about the reality they are supposedly defending. Of course, on the flip-side, one can argue, if they're all evil liars, that's a difficult-to-believe conspiracy. Many will argue that such a conspiracy is unlikely to keep a lid on. Conspiracy is a bad word. This is a corporation with corporate trade secrets. These kind of secrets are kept all the time at the top of most large, diverse companies, with the knowledge compartmentalized with those having a need to know. Even CEOs do not know all the trade secrets of the company because such details are far beyond a single human capacity to know. The kind of deals and financial arrangements made in any corporation is held tight. Secrecy in other (government) organizations is obviously not compromised as well.

But is this a criminal conspiracy? Not to the Q12/first presidency.

First of all, these men do not actually control the finances of the church. They're at its mercy. Much of their adult lives have been spun up and dedicated into one system. They are running the front-face of a massive corporation. The machinery is beyond them. But the rock-stardom it gives them reaches far into their extended family. They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all.

They have a lot of perks. They have fans. They have trips. They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy. They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand. Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.

Not one of them is actually that talented at this late point in life in scriptural scholarship or academic studies. While they may not need it to write a church dismantling tome, they will need the credibility when one of them alone stands, as an old (potentially senile) man, against a unanimous quorum. Without significant credibility, charges of senility will absolutely ring true for 99% of members.

A single book deal exposing it will fall flat. The family of that man will be utterly disgraced. The business they built and reputation they have will be dismantled. Not the church.

Better to stay the course and slowly reform it without upsetting the family apple cart. I'll post more rumors here in this blog as they come to me in the next week...

[Colofornian]

And I suppose if a number of FREEPERs consistently opposed the homosexual activism we see out there, that you might come on a thread and claim they are "attacking homosexuals as a group"? Yes? No?

You know, there are simply some atheists out there who while they consistently attack Christianity, I don't take it personally. I look at their comments, most of which are off-base, and I realize they are either...
...attacking the God of Christianity (& God, when you boil it down, doesn't need my help to defend Him),
...or they are attacking caricatures of Christianity (& why defend against "straw men?")
...or they are attacking a combination of mishaps committed by both Christians & Christians in Name Only + misgivings they have about the Christian faith.

My key point is that an atheist can critique Christianity without "going after Christians as a group."

Or a homosexual activist can critique elements of Christianity without "going after Christians as a group."

Now if this can be said, why is the assumption being made that it's the people themselves who are targeted?
What distinctions do you make between critiquing MormonISM vs. what you see as some attack upon Mormons?
What boundaries do you erect here as general points of distinction?
And where is your specific evidence for such a claim?

(Please just don't make insinuations minus evidence provided)

[MHGinTN]

What a disgusting and typical response from your mind. And the sad thing is, you are unable to see yourself as you post such stuff. Yet you wonder why some folks question your claim to be motivated by Christian concern for their welfare. ... But I do appreciate you illsutrating for us just what is in your heart when you run on at the keyboard.

[Colofornian]

(That’s what I thought...no evidence provided in your insinuations...just more baseless accusations)

[MHGinTN]

See, you can’t even comprehend that I pointed to your smarmy post as evidence to your state of mind. Have nice day. I have laundry to do.

[JAKraig]

You, totally misrepresent what I said. I said in effect what you said except that not only do I agree that upwards of 500 saw Christ rise to Heaven but also that there were witnessess to the Gold Plates and angels that visited Joseph Smith.

My point is that we don’t know that these things happened, we can only “believe” they did by faith or if they happen to us then we can know. Other than that our religion is a religion of “faith”.

Is faith against reason? Probably most of the time it is. We don’t have reason to believe that people have been brought back from the dead or that the soldiers that killed Jesus didn’t do a through job. We know that people can’t walk on water or just rise up and disappear to Heaven. So, reason is not normally a component of faith, it is usually a distraction from faith, often a contradiction of faith.

As far as your being sorry about my beliefs in Jesus Christ:

You likely don’t have a clue as to what I believe but I will give you a glimpse into my belief if you like. Jesus Christ is my Lord. He is the Son of the Living God. He took upon Himself my sins and allowed Himself to be punished for them even though He deserved no punishmnent because He was and is perfection personified. Because Jesus The Christ lives I too will live after this life and every person that ever lived will stand before Him and His Father to answer for their sins. I will be among the fortunate because I am a follower of the Lord. When my sins are being listed and the punishment and banishment from eternal life are being given I know that The Lord Jesus Christ will step forward and tell His Father that the punishment has already been given and that it would be wrong to be given again. The Lord will tell His Father that I am His, that He purchased me with His blood and pain. The law will be satisfied. The law is that no imperfect thing can dwell in the presence of God. Because the reward for sin will have already been given I will be able to dwell with God and His Son. I will forever be in debt to Christ because of his gift to me that I can never repay. I realize the wonder of that gift. I realize the magnitude of that gift and am grateful for it in a way that I can’t describe, but, I only know these things by the witness of the Holy Ghost, my feelings if you will.

Make fun of my feelings all you want but in the end that is all we have unless we are somehow fortunate enough to have a personal witness through revelation from God of the the truthfullness of His Son and Gospel plan.

If God has given you this revelation and shared these facts with you, you should share them with us so that we too can know. Until you do I am left with those that have done so and with the “feelings” I get when I read or hear their witness.

I am grateful to those writers of the New Testament who wrote the stories they heard from the Apostles as they were told in various meetings of the Saints. We seem to think that the words of the Gospels were written from the hand of the Apostles but they were written by others as they heard what the Apostles said. When I read those words I get the “feelings” that you make such fun of. I am grateful to those who have done so much to help me know the truths of the Gospel.

The Mormons apparently get those “feelings” when they read what their historical figures have written. I can’t deny what they feel even though you can. I have great respect for them because they live their religion.

Fortunately for Mormons, you and I are not their judges but the same judge that Judges us will judge them and I doubt they will be found any more innocent or guilty than us. They believe in Christ, they follow Christ. They may believe things that I don’t but they believe the essential things and in my opinion, and thats all it is, that will be enough to save them, I hope so.

You may not believe they will be saved, fine, they may not believe you will be saved but, what you believe or what I believe or what they believe is not nearly as important as truth. The Savior knows the truth. When He tells it to you, tell it to me.

[Colofornian]

My point is that we don’t know that these things happened, we can only “believe” they did by faith or if they happen to us then we can know. Other than that our religion is a religion of “faith”.

You know, people are convicted ALL the time minus any confession -- and even minus the bulk of physical evidence... and have thus been convicted PRIMARILY on the basis of eyewitness testimony.

I don't suppose you would rush into all these cases, claiming that because the physical evidence is lacking or 100% inconclusive that we somehow "don't know that these things happened" as eyewitnesses -- & a jury -- have concluded

[Colofornian]

Is faith against reason? Probably most of the time it is. We don’t have reason to believe that people have been brought back from the dead...

#1...You are saying the God of reason -- the One who created reason and rationality -- is somehow against it "most of the time?"

This is the God who says: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

We don’t have reason to believe that people have been brought back from the dead...

Why not?

When your boss at work tells you something authoritatively, do you openly question it?

When a policeman stops you, and asks you to step out of your car, do you balk? Do you resist?

Why is it that you would readily obey -- and take at face value -- the word of a mere human...but when divine authority is imbedded, you seemingly balk?

When David was faced with fleshing out a mere "faith doctrine" of the resurrection (yes, the Old Testament proclaimed a resurrection...see Job 19:25-27; Ps. 49:15; Is. 26:19) in the case of his dying infant son, what was David's conclusion?

"I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” (2 Sam. 12:23)

David took God's Word at His Word that BOTH he and his son would be resurrected! Yes, that includes faith, but it's hardly "unreasonable" to believe on the one hand a God who can create us out of nothing (or out of a rib, or out of dust) would suddenly be hamstrung to resurrecting such dust!!!

A NT example of faith combined with simple taking God/Christ at His Word is the Centurion in Matthew 8. Yes, Jesus DID conclude with touting the Centurion's great faith that Christ would heal his servant (see Matt 8:10).

But what I am emphasizing here is not ONLY our response but the Reality of Truth and the Reality of Promise upon which our response of faith is based! God/Christ IS the Authoritative One who can be trusted to say reasonable things...and why are they "reasonable"?

Because it's actually precisely 'UNreasonable' to believe in a God who can't do these things...I mean that's what 'God' definition-wise includes!

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” 7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” 8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

If God has promised a resurrection, why would anyone want to undermine His authority of such a promise by thinking God as Creator and Re-Creator is 'against' reason? (He may be beyond reason; but that is not the same as being against it!)

So the bottom-line Q is: Why is His authority somehow suspect but your boss or a police officer is to be 100% respected?

[greyfoxx39]

Flying Inmans will continue to battle the blasphemy of mormonism.

We laugh at the outrage shown by mormons to any criticism of the sect, especially when there are 100,000 mormon missionaries going around the world claiming to Christians that their faith is bogus and the only way to salvation is through arcane rituals in mormon temples.

Those who are outraged at our posts on FR are hypocritical if they are not calling for all these missionaries to be sent home immediately.

[Colofornian]

...what you believe or what I believe or what they believe is not nearly as important as truth. The Savior knows the truth. When He tells it to you, tell it to me.

ALL: Notice the assumptions present. The assumption here is that JAKraig knows at least ONE absolute truth (that some others here in this thread don't know). And the assumption is that this ONE absolute truth is that NOBODY knows the absolute truth about anything of spiritual import. (So JA is allowed this allowance of absolute knowledge on at least one thing; we aren't given that same privilege)

Allow me to first paraphrase JA's statement above: "Yeah, there IS truth. You don't know it. The Mormons don't know it. I don't know it -- except for this 'absolute truth' that none of us know it. But the Savior DOES know it. And He hasn't shared it (yet). When He does, be sure to let me in on it."

Wow! Such a marvelous confidence you exhibit, JA in the hand-picked disciples of this Savior! Here, the Savior ABSOLUTELY PROMISED His disciples:

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into ALL THE TRUTH. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will MAKE IT KNOWN TO YOU. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU." (John 16)

And, yet, apparently, JA you call Jesus a liar or false prophet re: what He shared in John 16!

If, on the other hand, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide those disciples into ALL TRUTH re: what they recorded in the Gospels/Acts, etc.; And if the Holy Spirit was indeed faithful in "making it known" to them, who in turn have "made it known" to ensuing generations via the New Testament...then where is this "guesswork" you try to make this all out to be? Where is this BLIND faith you make it out to be?

If your boss said he was going to the South Pacific for the next decade, and told you he wanted you to run the business til he got back, and he told you a consultant he was leaving to help you would tell you all you needed to know to run the business, and that you were expected to write those things down in case anything happened to you -- for the next generation of company bosses -- what would be your exact opinion of underlings who questioned your ways of running the business?

(Perhaps they would be fired...especially if they were openly spreading that dissent...in questioning the boss and those he left in charge?)

[svcw]

Amen!

[Colofornian]

...what you believe or what I believe or what they believe is not nearly as important as truth. The Savior knows the truth. When He tells it to you, tell it to me.

JA, you utter the words "the truth" as if we can't discern it from the Bible!

Look, for a moment at these two passages from the apostle Paul -- Philippians 4...and Ephesians 5:

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. (Phil 4)

If, JA, we don't know what is definitely "true" -- or "right" -- then there's a LOT LESS here Paul is saying for us to dwell on!

Eph. 5: 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

If Christian's can't publicly discern between darkness and light, then there's nothing to expose...ever.

Or take 1 Cor. 13:6. Paul says that love "rejoices in the truth." Well, that assumes we know "the truth" to rejoice in!

The Bible makes constant references to "the truth."

Are you saying on vital matters like what we are discussing, we are simply operating blindly in darkness, minus the light of God's Word?

Is faith ALWAYS operating in darkness? (Blind faith?)

[greyfoxx39]

Are you saying on vital matters like what we are discussing, we are simply operating blindly in darkness, minus the light of God's Word?

I think it is very plain that mormonism teaches the only "light of God's Word" is filtered through the words of Joseph Smith and following "prophets"...that is what I heard in the pews of mormonism for years, the arrogance of being members in "the only true and living church on the face of the earth".

From LDS.org "The only true and living church"

The Only True and Living Church

By Elder Dallin H. Oaks

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

From an address delivered on June 25, 2010, at a seminar for new mission presidents.

What does it mean that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church?

Our first responsibility and purpose is to testify of Jesus Christ to a world that suffers to know of His divine mission. As my response to that great responsibility, I will speak about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only true and living Church. In doing so I know I speak against the powerful tide of what is called “political correctness.”

The fashionable opinion of this age is that all churches are true. In truth, the idea that all churches are the same is the doctrine of the anti-Christ, illustrated by the Book of Mormon account of Korihor (see Alma 30). That account was given to teach us a vital lesson in our day.

A revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1831, soon after the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, spoke of those who had been given “power to lay the foundation of this church.” The Lord then referred to the Church as “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased” (D&C 1:30).

Because of this declaration of the Lord, we refer to this, His Church—our Church—as the “only true Church.” Sometimes we do this in a way that gives great offense to people who belong to other churches or who subscribe to other philosophies. But God has not taught us anything that should cause us to feel superior to other people. Certainly all churches and philosophies have elements of truth in them, some more than others. Certainly God loves all of His children. And certainly His gospel plan is for all of His children, all according to His own timetable.

So what does it mean that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church?

Three features—(1) fulness of doctrine, (2) power of the priesthood, and (3) testimony of Jesus Christ—explain why God has declared and why we as His servants maintain that this is the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth.

1. Fulness of Doctrine

When Jesus Christ was upon the earth, He taught the fulness of His doctrine, which is the plan that our Heavenly Father has outlined for the eternal progress of His children. Later, many of these gospel truths were lost through being diluted by the principles or philosophies then prevailing in the world where Christianity was preached and through the manipulations of political leaders. We call this loss of the fulness of truth the Apostasy.

Many church denominations or philosophies that exist in the world today contain, in greater or lesser measure, truths revealed by God in earlier days, along with a mixture of the philosophies or manipulations of men. We believe that most religious leaders and followers are sincere believers who love God and understand and serve Him to the best of their abilities. We are indebted to the men and women who kept the light of faith and learning alive through the centuries to the present day. We want all who investigate our church from other churches or systems of belief to retain everything they have that is good and to come and see how we can add to their understanding of truth and to their happiness as they follow it.

Because so much had been lost in the Apostasy, it was necessary that the Lord restore the fulness of His doctrine. That began with what we call Joseph Smith’s First Vision.

The fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ begins with the assurance that we lived as spirits before we came to this earth. It affirms that this mortal life has a purpose. It teaches that our highest aspiration is to become like our heavenly parents. We do this by qualifying for the glorified celestial condition and relationships that are called exaltation or eternal life, which will empower us to perpetuate our family relationships throughout eternity.

The doctrine of Jesus Christ, understood in its fulness, is the plan by which we can become what children of God are supposed to become. This spotless and perfected state will result from a steady succession of covenants, ordinances, and actions; an accumulation of right choices; and continuing repentance. “This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God” (Alma 34:32). This is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel.

The restored gospel of Jesus Christ is comprehensive, universal, merciful, and true. Following the necessary experience of mortal life, all sons and daughters of God will be resurrected and go to a kingdom of glory more wonderful than any mortals can comprehend. With only a few exceptions, even the very wicked will ultimately go to a marvelous—though lesser—kingdom of glory. All of this will occur because of God’s great love for His children, and it is all made possible because of the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, “who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands” (D&C 76:43).

2. Power of the Priesthood

The second and absolutely essential characteristic of the “only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” is priesthood authority.

The Bible is clear that priesthood authority is necessary and that this authority had to be conferred by the laying on of hands by those who held it. Priesthood authority did not come from a desire to serve or from reading the scriptures. When that priesthood authority was lost through apostasy, it had to be restored by those resurrected beings who had held it in mortality and who were sent to confer it. That happened as part of the Restoration of the gospel, and that priesthood authority, together with the keys necessary to direct its operations, are in this Church and no other.

As a result of our having the power of the priesthood, the leaders and duly authorized members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are empowered to perform the required priesthood ordinances, such as baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the administration of the sacrament.

The keys of the priesthood, held by our beloved prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, and every other prophet and President of the Church, entitle him to revelation in behalf of the entire Church. This Church is “living” because we have prophets who continue to give us the word of the Lord that is needed for our time.

3. Testimony of Jesus Christ

The third reason why we are the only true Church is that we have the revealed truth about the nature of God and our relationship to Him, and we therefore have a unique testimony of Jesus Christ. Significantly, our belief in the nature of God is what distinguishes us from the formal creeds of most Christian denominations.

The Articles of Faith, our only formal declaration of belief, begin as follows: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” We have this belief in the Godhead in common with the rest of Christianity, but to us it means something different than to most. We maintain that these three members of the Godhead are three separate and distinct beings and that God the Father is not a spirit but a glorified being with a tangible body, as is His resurrected Son, Jesus Christ. Though separate in identity, They are one in purpose.

Joseph Smith’s First Vision showed that the prevailing concepts of the nature of God and the Godhead were untrue and could not lead their adherents to the destiny God desired for them (see Joseph Smith—History 1:17–19). A subsequent outpouring of modern revelation clarified the significance of this fundamental truth and also gave us the Book of Mormon. This new book of scripture is a second witness of Christ. It affirms the biblical prophecies and teachings of the nature and mission of Christ. It enlarges our understanding of His gospel and His teachings during His earthly ministry. It also provides many teachings by which we may know the truth of these things.

We are not grounded in the wisdom of the world or the philosophies of men—however traditional or respected they may be. Our testimony of Jesus Christ is based on the revelations of God to His prophets and to us individually. (See 1 Corinthians 2:1–5; 2 Nephi 28:26.)

So what does our testimony of Jesus Christ cause us to affirm?

Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, the Eternal Father. He is the Creator of this world. Through His incomparable mortal ministry, He is our teacher. Because of His Resurrection, all who have ever lived will be raised from the dead. He is the Savior, whose atoning sacrifice paid for the sin of Adam and opened the door for us to be forgiven of our personal sins so that we can be cleansed to return to the presence of God, our Eternal Father. This is the central message of the prophets of all ages.

I solemnly affirm my testimony of Jesus Christ and the truth of His gospel. He lives, and His gospel is true. He is the Light and Life of the World (see D&C 34:2). He is the Way to immortality and eternal life (see John 14:6). To me, the miracle of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is incomprehensible. But the Holy Ghost has given me a witness of its truthfulness, and I can rejoice that I can spend my life in proclaiming it.

Priesthood authority had to be restored by those resurrected beings who had held it in mortality. That priesthood authority, together with the keys necessary to direct its operations, are in this Church and no other.

We are not grounded in the wisdom of the world or the philosophies of men. Our testimony of Jesus Christ is based on the revelations of God to His prophets and to us individually

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THIS false doctrine is where defenders of mormonism are coming from....whether these defenders are mormons themselves or are fulfilling their OWN agenda in attacking those of us who are defending true Christianity from false beliefs.

[Colofornian]

I want to thank you for your transparency in what you covered in this post. (I appreciate it)

Especially here:

...I will give you a glimpse into my belief if you like. Jesus Christ is my Lord. He is the Son of the Living God. He took upon Himself my sins and allowed Himself to be punished for them even though He deserved no punishmnent because He was and is perfection personified. Because Jesus The Christ lives I too will live after this life and every person that ever lived will stand before Him and His Father to answer for their sins. I will be among the fortunate because I am a follower of the Lord. When my sins are being listed and the punishment and banishment from eternal life are being given I know that The Lord Jesus Christ will step forward and tell His Father that the punishment has already been given and that it would be wrong to be given again. The Lord will tell His Father that I am His, that He purchased me with His blood and pain. The law will be satisfied. The law is that no imperfect thing can dwell in the presence of God. Because the reward for sin will have already been given I will be able to dwell with God and His Son. I will forever be in debt to Christ because of his gift to me that I can never repay. I realize the wonder of that gift. I realize the magnitude of that gift and am grateful for it in a way that I can’t describe, but, I only know these things by the witness of the Holy Ghost, my feelings if you will. Make fun of my feelings all you want...

Whose making fun of your feelings?

You said this in response to my post #80...and I nowhere in post #80 "made fun" of any feelings.

[Elsie]

If this were truly a Religion Forum EVERYONE would GET what I am saying.

[Elsie]

But the threads have taken an ‘attack Momrons as a group’ direction which is not a Christian perspective.

And we ANTIs (as we are loving called) have gotten rid of EVERY single Momrons that appeared!!!

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So now; the only battles we take on, are centered around the heretical theology of Mormonism.

[Elsie]

The reality is that the Mormons have a number of witnesses of whom there are birth certificates and death certificates and grave yards with them in it that swear they saw the plates and angels.

The bible warns about angels- angels of LIGHT.

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Here are some PLATE images...

The following are the LYING images that MORMONism has produced, KNOWING that they represent something FALSE!!

 

 

   

And HERE are testimonies from WITNESSES!!!!

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"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."

---Joseph Knight's journal.

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"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.

(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),

"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

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"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,

as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,

and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

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In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."

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"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"

reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881

in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

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In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:

 

 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,

Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12

June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)

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Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:

 

"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"

("A New Witness for Christ in America,"

Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)

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"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."

---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.

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So...

Who do you 'believe'?

[Elsie]

When you question their beliefs and motives you are accusing them of evil.

Really?

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Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[Elsie]

It is my OPINION that the focus has changed subtly from exposing the vagaries of ther ISM and the blashphemous aspects, to degrading and ridiculing the adherents of the ISM.

If one persists in IGNORING the facts tossed up from the coffers of Mormonism on an almost daily basis on FR; and if hit and run posters REFUSE to engage them; then yes; I WILL 'ridicule' them and 'degrade' them and mock them.

THEY are the ones clinging to a PROVEN heresy and and PROVEN anti-Christian religion and all the while claiming a superiority that is repugnant to us 'gentiles'.

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(I am of an 'opinion' that because I did NOT cave in to the massive pressure generated on FR to support ROMNEY {our ONLY hope!!!} during the last election cycle, some folks still have not gotten over it.)

[Elsie]

Fred, is it possible that a number of your comments on this thread equate to you speaking out of your grief here?

Possible; But my 'opinion' is that it's to get along better at home.

[Elsie]

What a disgusting and typical response from your mind.

Golly!

I can't WAIT until you review MY replies!