Skip to comments.Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012- 2013 ['LDS Church...not true' uttered by leaders]
Posted on 04/09/2013 4:52:45 PM PDT by Colofornian
Editor Comment: Grant waited 6 months before releasing this report to the public because he wanted to make sure this is what the GA believed.
In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him. He explained that neither of them, including the GAs wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An Insiders View of Mormon Origins, and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.
We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, We are here to learn. I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.
He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are church broke, meaning, will they do whatever they are told. He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly because the people need it, meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: No, he doesnt. The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesnt expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.
When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on his interactions with them. Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss truth issues, meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.
He said that the apostles lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church. The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church. I said that if the apostles know the church is not true and yet order a disciplinary hearing for my writing a book that is almost certainly true regarding the foundational claims of the church, then they are corrupt even evil. He replied, Thats right!
The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you dont see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will explode. When it does, he said, the members are going to be shocked and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past.
The Mission President and the GA both said they attend church every Sunday and feel like a hypocrite and trapped. The GA said his ward treats him like a king and when he gives firesides and speaks to LDS congregations they have high expectations of him. He would like to do more in getting the truth out besides raising a few questions when speaking and gifting my book to others when feeling comfortable. Perhaps this is why he has reached out to me. The GA is a man of integrity and very loving. Upon leaving each time, he always gives me a big hug.
Do the Following Statements Support the Disclosures of the GA?
Apostle Boyd K. Packer said to Michael Quinn when interviewing him for a history position at BYU in 1976, I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting, it destroys, quoted in, Faithful History: Essays on Writing Mormon History, editor, George D. Smith, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1992), 76n22.
Gregory Prince, who wrote a seminal biography of President David O. McKay, related to me that when he interviewed Hugh Nibley, a professor at BYU in 1995, that At one point in the interview he [Nibley] asked that I turn off the tape recorder, which I did. He then related a curious anecdote relating to McKay and the Book of Mormon, indicating that McKay did not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon (emails exchanged between me and Greg Prince on June 22, 2005. These documents are located in The Grant H. Palmer Papers, Accn 2071, Manuscripts Division, Marriott Library, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah).
Thomas Stuart Ferguson, a California lawyer, church member and avid amateur archeologist, took the Egyptian papyri that was gifted to the church in 1967 to several Egyptologists at Berkeley, and as I recall Brown University and had them independently translated. All said the papyri were common funerary rites from the Book of the Dead. Ferguson then took their statements to apostle Hugh B. Brown, and after reviewing the evidence with Brother Brown he said that Brother Brown agreed with him that it was not scripture
. that Hugh B. Brown did not believe the Book of Abraham was what the church said it was (Journal entry of Ronald O. Barney concerning Thomas Stuart Ferguson on 19 April, 1984. Barney, now retired, worked at the LDS Library and Archives at Church headquarters, in Salt Lake City). Ferguson also said the same to Gerald and Sandra Tanner on December 2, 1970: Mr. Ferguson had just visited with Mormon apostle Hugh B. Brown before coming to our house, and said that Brown has also come to the conclusion that the Book of Abraham was false (Letter of Gerald Tanner to Dee Jay Nelson, December 10, 1970, published by Modern Microfilm Co., SLC, Utah).
So...High-level Lds leaders are already indicating they among the Mormon DISbelievers!
And, that such "disbelief" is rampant among them!
Also, they have disclosed that if an Lds apostle isn't already a millionaire, the Lds church ensures they become one!
Along with these "revelations," the "inside term" High-level Lds leaders use for both the selection process and early "grooming" of Lds newbie "apostles" is "church broke"...IOW, "will they do whatever they are told" by the six senior "apostles?" Are they "sold out" to the church structure?
And many of these high-level Lds leaders realize the Mormon church is on the precipice of going over the cliff...or, to use their own metaphor: The weakened Lds dam is about to break wide open!
From the report: The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you dont see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will explode. When it does, he said, the members are going to be shocked and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past. The Mission President and the GA both said they attend church every Sunday and feel like a hypocrite and trapped.
The Internet age has brought about a "dam" about to break upon Mormonism. The flood of truth cannot be contained by its general authorities; in fact, even they realize it -- but are now patronizing its grass roots in believing they cannot handle the full truth.
The modern dissenters better be praying that there are no
Danites or Porter Rockwells to do the work of the leaders.
I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath [sic] my bowie knife, and conquer or die [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.]. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet [Voices, generally, go it, go it.]. If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up.]. Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 83
...it was the imperative duty of the Church to obey the word of Joseph Smith, or the presidency, without question or inquiry, and that if there were any that would not, they should have their throats cut from ear [to] ear.
- Sidney Rigdon letter to Apostle Orson Hyde, October 21, 1844, in Nauvoo Neighbor, December 4, 1844
Punishment by death is the penalty for refusing to obey the orders of the Priesthood. I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo by the Danites. It was then the rule that all enemies of the Prophet Joseph should be killed, and I knew of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his apostles while the church was there.
- Elder John D. Lee (1812 1877), Danite and adopted son of Brigham Young, John D. Lee Diaries
Within a few weeks I went with him to their church, laid out the evidence to the church leadership (which they could not refute) and that young man walked out of the Mormon church that day, and joined a bible teaching church that I was a member of, met and married a young christian girl, and has continued as one of the most outspoken critics of the Mormon cult.
(If only all such Christians would befriend Mormons & "risk" telling them the truth...in detail...our Christian churches would be lined with ex-Mormons...Now obviously MANY ex-Mormons DO wind up in Christian churches...still, far too many ex-Mormons wind up in the dustbin of atheism)
Here's a 2012 podcast interview you can listen to between Dehlin and Grant Palmer: Grant Palmer on Sexual Allegations Against Joseph Smith, William and Jane Law, and His Resignation
With all due respect I must say that I greatly appreciate your hard work here on the forums, however many of us do not become Atheists, rather Deists with an eye single to the glory of a certain higher being. It is the controlling aspects of all organized religion that many of us are against.
Just my certain humble opinion.
I've suspected that the cult used some kind of legal means to keep people quiet. Perhaps giving them loans that can be called due of they step out of line. Can you tell us more about this point? May dad was a church employee for 20 years before he left. I myself did a bit of consulting for them 15 years ago. This is what I have learned myself: Intellectual reserve, the legal proprietary arm of the church, makes you sign a contract. You cannot disclose what you did for them, how much you were paid or that you were hired as a contractor (I was). You cannot keep copies of the work, talk or publish it, it is owned it its entirety by the church. General authorities (I don't know of this applies to 2nd quorum of the 70's) sign over their property over to a trust, if you violate your contract they keep your property. What I have researched and heard from other ex- leaders: Since the time of BY, the church "lends" money to GA's for personal projects. This money is interest free and does not have to be repaid (this is for legal, tax and doctrinal reasons) if you tow the line. If you step out of line it becomes due and it is a lien on your property. Any income from sitting on boards, as director, consultant, etc- which is what the 12 spend most of their time doing, you keep, if you leave, since you are a representative of the church on those boards, you lose and may have to pay back. of course you loose your "living expenses" (60-120K), your access to church property for personal use (Hawaii, Florida, Europe, etc) This is how a "humble" life long seminary teacher (BKP) or meager church employee (GBH) can end up as millionaires as pass on significant wealth to family members. If you step out of line, its all gone and you are in serious legal trouble.
Thanks for the counterbalance offered up, 'Binger. (I appreciate it)
And you're right...Some Lds become Christians in Christian churches; others don't ignore God's existence -- they simply have become suspicious about churches in general...given that the Lds church itself has given them such a reasonable reason for such suspicions!
The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth.
I just shared the Psalm with my friend. She has forwarded that with the image to all of her friends.
Mormon girls in Southern Utah are all in mourning today as one of their young men took his own life on Sunday morning. A sad state of affairs with young Mormon men here in Kane County where there have been about ten suicides in the last five years. Mormon men age 25-35.
I hope this Psalm has comfort.
>> ...it was the imperative duty of the Church to obey the word of Joseph Smith, or the presidency, without question or inquiry, and that if there were any that would not, they should have their throats cut from ear [to] ear. <<
Is there any question that Smith and Young are burning in Hell?
You could at least have capitalized the ‘W’ :o)
>> “ It is the controlling aspects of all organized religion that many of us are against.” <<
So is Yeshua!
He called them “Nicolaitanos” and said that he hated them.
Yeshua’s church is wherever two or more are gathered in his name. You can be one of them without the threat of control, by just believing in him.
This is huge and should adversely affect church membership but will it? Doubtful.
The leadership admitting that their founding “prophet” was a fraud. WOW!!
(All caps on the “WOW” with double exclamation points!!)
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