Posted on 03/26/2013 8:02:07 PM PDT by ReformationFan
Let’s get one thing straight.
In this battle over same-sex ‘marriage’ it often sounds like those pushing the dismantling of traditional marriage have the upper hand in terms of love. ‘You are opposed to love!’; ‘How does the love between me and my partner affect you in your marriage?’; ‘Why can’t I be allowed to love whomever I choose?’
These are the tough arguments from ‘love’ facing those who are fighting to protect marriage from radical redefinition.
In truth, however, love is the principle reason to fight same-sex ‘marriage.’
You see, law is a teacher and enshrining same-sex ‘marriage’ in law would lead many people to believe that homosexual sexual relations are equal to those of heterosexual married couples. The difficulty, of course, is that while sexual acts between heterosexual married couples can be totally healthy and positive, the same can never be said of sexual acts between persons of the same sex, whether they happen within a relationship given the name “marriage” or not.
Our bodies were not designed for that behavior, and our anatomy itself gives that testimony. The negative mental and physical health consequences that flow from homosexual sex are many and the medical evidence pointing to them is readily available on LifeSiteNews.
(Excerpt) Read more at lifesitenews.com ...
a miracle- true miracle, is not just an interference with nature- it’s a compelte suspension of nature- an override of nature- it is somethign that can not happen on it’;s own- it MUST be performed by someoen endowed with supernatural powers-
I don’t know your hernia case, but hernias are known to spontaniously heal on their own- many diseases thought ‘uncurable’ also go into compelte remission on their own- You see what I’m gettign at here? When some diseases are claimed to be ‘healed supernaturally’ there is doubt- It ‘could have been’ purely natural causes that we don’t udnerstand’ that caused the remission- When Christ and the apostles did TRUE miracles, there was no question as to what just happened- no ambiguity, no doubt- the peopel knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that htey just wiontessed a TRUE supernatural miracle- because they witnessed with hteir own eyes thigns that superceeded and overruled natural cuasation
Circular logic.
What I want to know is when GOD said they would no longer happen; as it is quite evident from scripture that they ARE to happen.
(The bible did NOT elaborate on what TYPE of miracles they would be, as you are trying to do.)
Yes, I do.
You are saying that GOD had NOTHING to do with these cases.
You are being worse than snide, as you simply refuse to believe any testimonies of any such today, however rare, while ignoring that the spiritual declension and degree of unbelief of the church - with your help and mine- limits God.
"And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. " (Mark 6:5)
Thus according to your theology Christ was weak, but which is a ignorant conclusion.
Christ’s miracles wer such that NOONE could question that a TRUE miracle had happened
They should not, and He exceeded all in power, yet miracles are not restricted to multiplying loaves, while if you have ever contended with atheists today you should know that they usually will not even allow as a possibility that miracles occur, as you contend now, or dismiss the credibility of all those who testify of them, as you do, or attribute natural causes to miracles, which you also must, and that extraordinary things can occur in nature, or would argue that the dead who were raised were not really dead, etc.
it’;s obvious He has ceased with these SUPERNATURAL TRUE miracles for the tiem being
What is obvious you are either ignorant or refuse to believe any testimonies of such. Again, here are many which you cannot (well, you can if you want) all dismiss as being consistent with the normal laws of nature. And if miracles do not occur then the new birth does not, and God took a sabbatical He never said He would take.
I cannot claim to have the gift of working miracles, (1Cor. 12:10,28,29) but years ago when i witnessing in the subway system, offering gospel tracts, i saw a thin man at the phone book who was obviously distressed. He had a page of newspaper in one hand and keep making phone calls and frantically writing numbers down on the side of it. So I walked over and offered him a gospel tract, but he declined and expressed he HAD to find a drug detox and went back to dialing numbers. I told him i wanted to pray for him, and he assented, and so i put my hand on his shoulder and humbly prayed to God in Jesus' name to have mercy on the man and deliver him.
When i finished, he calmly hung up the receiver and with a radical change in countenance he looked me in the eye and said, "I don't know what you did sir, but whatever you did it worked," and how different he felt. He left the phone and walked with me as i explained his real need (for salvation).
And as i found out that he had to wait till tomorrow to get in the only detox that he had found that would take him, i offered to let him stay where i was, being a guest myself, and on the train he was still in a state of wonder, repeating again,as he "i don't know what you did..." to which i again replied, "if anyone did anything it was God, not me," and how he needed to turn to Christ.
The man was very sincere, not your typical homeless man, and was still expressing bewilderment at the change that occurred in him. The man definitely was not delivered because of his faith! Back at the place i stay, we offered him food and he could not believe he could eat normally, or even keep food down, and we talked and witnessed to him. He slept fine on the couch and the next day was still normal, but he had been accepted at the detox and still wanted to go with the program, although I warned him that he did not need to, but i cannot give faith or force belief. And Jesus healed people who would not follow Him at that time.
I can add to this the many many testimonies of answered prayer for things which rationally cannot be all attributed to natural causes or coincidence, as well as trials of long continuance that try faith, teach character,or chastise.
Then that would eliminate many things the bible shows as miracles, as the laws of nature are not always so set that many miracles, from crossing the Red Sea to healing thru spontaneous healing apart from known faith, or resuscitating. Infidel sites specialize in this, and you sound more like them.
I don’t know your hernia case, but hernias are known to spontaniously heal on their own- many diseases thought ‘uncurable’ also go into compelte remission on their own- You see what I’m gettign at here?
Yes, that of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Moses's 1st 3 miracles were duplicated by the devil so all must be rejected today.
As for my hernia, outside what may be called "new age" type sites (and i do not dispute the devil can heal, or man can lie), i do not know of any reputable medical source that teaches Inguinal Hernias can heal themselves, although i am open to that possiblity (more so then you are to the miraculous)
"An inguinal hernia isn't necessarily dangerous by itself. It doesn't get better or go away on its own, however, and it can lead to life-threatening complications." - http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/inguinal-hernia/DS00364
"If you have a hernia, it will not heal on its own. Surgery is the only way to treat a hernia." http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/tc/inguinal-hernia-topic-overview
An inguinal hernia will not heal by itself and does require surgery to be repaired. - http://surgery.about.com/od/proceduresaz/a/InguinalHernia.htm
"A hernia cannot get better or heal with medications" - http://www.urologycentre.com.sg/lap_hernia.html "Hernias do not heal on their own or “just go away” - http://www.drmatthewlublin.com/hernia-surgery/inguinal-groin-hernia-repair/ "Hernias don't go away on their own. Only surgery can repair a hernia." -http://www.cigna.com/individualandfamilies/health-and-well-being/hw/medical-topics/inguinal-hernia-za1162.html
"Hernia's don't heal on their own." - http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/do-hernias-heal-on-their-own/show/182396
"If you think a hernia will repair itself, you are very WRONG" - http://www.steadyhealth.com/hernia_never_got_repaired_heavy_lifting_t55979.html
Mine, which i got from lifting hickory wood the wrong way, was bad enough that i had to lay down for it to recede after lifting even 30lbs, unless i was very careful (use legs), likewise shoveling snow. After healing, i have out shovelled all on my block, praise God,, and at 5.5, 130lbs have lifted, with one friend on the back end, a very heavy extra capacity washing machine (w/ some water in it) as well as a stove and refer refer up two floors (2 on the back for that), and dug up about 50' x 20' of rock grass covered land with a pitchfork (broke thrice) to make a garden, so i thank God He heals!
So for you those are the only miracles...got it.
TRUE miracles yes- God DOES work marvelously and does heal- however the healings are ‘not beyond the possibility of having been naturally occured with help-
When Christ and hte apostles did their true miracles- as I have stated, there was NO ambiguity as to what those were- they were supernatural occurances and NOONE had to guess abotu whether they coudkl have just happened naturally and spontaniously because of the fact that they were obviously violations of nature by a supernatual God
I’
m sorry you folks seem so offended that I don’t think true supernatural miracles are happenign today- but I’m simpyl not seeign evidence that they are happening- and just for the record- the apostles didn’t hand pick peopel out of an audience to ‘heal’ them- they healed EVERYONE that came to htem for healing or even touched their shadow- This was a VERY special time in history meant to show the Jews at that time who doubted that Christ was the promissed savior, that He was indeed God, and that the apostles indeed WERE endowed with special gifts- them itracles (which incidently were VERY jewish in nature so that htere coudl be NO confusing whther Christ was who He said He was) we specifically for Jews who were doubtful and caught up in paganism and falkse gods and idols at that time-
[[You are saying that GOD had NOTHING to do with these cases]]
Oh for cryign out loud- Where the heck did I say that Elsie? If you’re NOT goign to argue with intellectual integrity nd honesty- I really don’t care to discuss the matter further with you- You obviously are upset that I doubt that TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES iocure today- and now you’re resortign to puttign words i nmy mouth- I’ll explain this for you but apparently you are only hearign whaqt yuou want to hear- Healings today via prayer DO occure however they are NOT the TRUE SUPERNATURAL EVENTS meant for the Jews that we see i nthe bible- Todays healings often take a long time, are not so much done ‘on command’ or COULD BE the result of spontanious natural occurances facilitated by the power of suggestion
When Christ and apostkles did hteir TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES, they were performignm iracles that ONLY coudl be doen through SUPERNATURAL MEANS (Not yelling- just stressign key concepts to clear this up for you) There was absolutely NO confusing what just happened- There was NO way the peopel coudl have said “Well, that could have just happened naturally, so, although we beleive it was God, it could have been God worjkign htrough ntural means because hte body IS capable of spontanious natural remissions”
The TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES performed back then Are NOT beign doen today- Again- show me the dead rising, show me limbs beign restored via a command- You’ve avoided doign htis for several posts now- Show me hem iracles that can NOT be confused with natural circumstances- Christ’s and the Apostles miracles were instantanious, sueprnatural, and hte peopel knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that what htey just saw3 was so supernatural in nature that ONLY a sueprnatural God coudl have violated natural law to make it happen- I’ll ask one last time...Show me the violatiosn of natural law happenign today
[[(The bible did NOT elaborate on what TYPE of miracles they would be, as you are trying to do.) ]]
Goodness- the bible DID elavborate and verified via the apostles doign the supernatural miracles- Christ told them they woudl do thigns even greater than He had done- and they did- peopel no longer do these same nature violating miracles- so obviously somethign has ceased- uinless you have evidence of men of God violating natural law today in ways that ONLY a supernatural God could possibly heal or restore?
you seem to be movign aweay fro mthe idea that supernatural nature violating miracles do not happen todfay into the argtument that I suppsoedly htink God does NOT heal peopel today (which by the way is false accusation)
[[You are being worse than snide, as you simply refuse to believe any testimonies of any such today, however rare, while ignoring that the spiritual declension and degree of unbelief of the church - with your help and mine- limits God.]]
Dabniel- I have two eyes- I have ears- I se and hear NOTHING abotu violations of natural law- Again I’ll ask you to provide exampels of violations of natural law which can NOT be confused with any other means of occuring-
[[Thus according to your theology Christ was weak, but which is a ignorant conclusion. ]]
now you’re just beign silly and claimign I’m sayign htigs i NEVER said Daniel- What is wrogn with you folks? You are taking my quesitons about supernatural miracles way too personally and being upset about it? I aksed you if Christ waqs weakeebd today because we oviosuly see no more violations of natural laws when it coems to htem iracles I’ve described- You claiemd all the gifts are stil lavailable ‘to a lesser degree’ and I’m sayign no- there is NO ‘lesser degree’ when it coems to supernatural violations of natural law- eityher soemthign or someoen is capable of violating natural law or they are not- Yuo claimed/implied peopel today still have Christ’s power but just ‘to a lesser degree’ If a hernai is capable of healign on it’s own spontaniously- then nothign supernatural has occured- it was fully natural- God may have facilitated a speady healing NATURALLY but when Christ and apostles did hteir miracles these miracles could ONLY have been SUPERNATURALLY
[[while if you have ever contended with atheists today you should know that they usually will not even allow as a possibility that miracles occur,]]
not to side with htem- but when you argue with them are you showign hte4m true violations of natural law? If not, why not? Because htey do not occure today- Yuo can only point to things that are ambiguous and Say “God did it” whereas peopel back in Christ’s day coudl point to the TRUE SUPERNATURAL Miracles and say- You see? This IS the Christ- He did that sueprnaturally- There waqs NO question about it
This argument started off by soem sayign miracles occure today- I asked for evbidnece that TRUE supernatural miracles are occurign today- and noone has provided any evidence of it- they only provide anecdotal occurances which ‘may or may not’ have been God workign THROUGH NATURAL MEANS- IF God were still doing His spuernatural miracles today- EVERYONE i nthe audience who was sick or missing parts would be able to be healed isntantaniously- peopel mising digestive tracts woudl have NEW digestive tracts which coudl be verified by medical professionals to verify that a TRUE miracle just occured- peoppel missing limbs woudl have them restored- on and on- an tyou not see why your atheist coutnerparts might question you when you only provide things that coudl have occured naturally? The miracles inChrist’s day left NO doubt to anyone- all had personaly witnessed TRUE SUPERNATURAL miracles that coudl not have possibly occured naturally
[[I can add to this the many many testimonies of answered prayer for things which rationally cannot be all attributed to natural causes or coincidence,]]
i’m sorry- but it CAN be natural causes- Christ’s miracles coudl NOT
I say you need to get out of the the US, and go to third world countries where miracles are performed daily.
We are very independent here, and in general have no reason to ask, however I have seen and experienced miracles, I am sorry you have not experienced that.
And then i must say you live in a very isolated universe, or like atheists, refuse to allow any testimonies of the miraculous to be true, calling all such liars or deceived souls. How much investigation have you conducted? How many videos have you watched from the link i gave before? Note that the miracles in the Bible were not verified by medical science (but are true as inspired holy writ), and while i certainly do not give blanket credibility to all testimonies, but i see many as genuine, and some which pass the unScriptural criteria you restrict "true miracles" to, due your decision to hold to an unScriptural hyper cessationist position.
And here are some other and which i have seen or heard:
Delores Winder : Plagued with pseudoarthrosis for nineteen and one-half years, Delores Winder was preparing for her funeral.
Jan Aldridge Jan was supernaturally healed of a tongue that was too large.
Bill Kent : Quadriplegic supernaturally healed after over 15 years!
Note that offering these testimonies do not sanction all that is on a site, nor even all the minister held to, as a gift or charism does not equal character (Balaam was a real prophet), nor does being saved in a church sanction all a church holds to (Spurgeon quickly left the church he was saved in due to the poor "pasture"), but God gives grace where He wills, and souls must respond to it.
now you’re just beign silly and claimign I’m sayign htigs i NEVER said Daniel- What is wrogn with you folks?
It is you who is wrong here, as your argument was that the lack of the manner of mighty or what you call "true miracles" and instead a lesser class, means God must be weak. But the fact is that due to unbelief Jesus"could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them." (Mark 6:5) And which you erroneously exclude as true miracles.
Much of what followed from you is too much of a rant to really warrant more of a response (and it would help if you used Firefox and choose to correct your incessant typos), but as regards
IF God were still doing His spuernatural miracles today- EVERYONE i nthe audience who was sick or missing parts would be able to be healed isntantaniously..,- That is simply not Scriptural, as God did the most miracles in instituting a covenant and new teaching, and which gave attestation to it, as seen in the case of Moses, but this level, did not continue, miracles being more rare, but they still were done. Likewise in Acts we a decreasing record of such, but which is not to be mistaken to mean they ceased.
And what you cannot do is show in Scripture that miracles would cease. Even normal cessionists usually do not disallow that God does miracles today, but they (wrongly) believe the gift of working them ceased.
- they only provide anecdotal occurances which ‘may or may not’ have been God workign,..he miracles in Christ’s day left NO doubt to anyone- all
Again, you simply refuse to look or believe any such happens today, and since in your isolated universe you have not seen any that convince you, you conclude they do not. Yet there are multitudes today that have seen miracles in that leave no doubt in their mind, while the atheists of today would deal with the miracles of Christ as they do now. You only see what you want to see, and dismiss or explain away what you do not.
I read and responded to the pm- But I’ll just say here- I’ve doen quite a bit of research, and it’s clear that there are no supernatural miracles liek hte ones I’ve mentioend over and over haqppenign today anywhere- The ‘closest’ are the Zombies of Haiiti (Or Jamaca- or carribeans can’t remember exactly where now) where they ‘kill’ a person then days later that person shows up alive but in a zombie state- they attributed it to witchcraft/dark arts/voodoo but the FACT was that itr was othign but deceitful trickery usign hte poison of a fish to make it appear the person was dead- even to doctors-
Oral Roberts claiemd to have raised the dead- or witnessed it, however, Noone else seemed to remember such things medically- nor coudl they prove it- medically- But when Jesus raised the dead and hte apostles did- NOONE coudl deny it- they witnessed this great miraqcle with hteir own eyes- ALL saw it- and htere was simpyl no denying what htey had just wintessed- There waqs no “Well, it ‘could have been’ naturally caused” because the FACT of the matter was that it was most clearly SUPERNATURALLY caused right efore their eyes- the mriacles violated natural law- Just as Christ vioalted naturaql law when He walked on the water- There was NO question that what the peopel on the boat werre seeign was a TRUE full blown supernatural miracle
Anyways-
Of COURSE I have, for you have not answered the FIRST question; "When did GOD say they would stop?"
[[Again, you simply refuse to look or believe any such happens today,]]
I do? please point out where I have rfused any such thing? I’;ve asked repeatedly for examples- I’ve asked repetedly for evidence of TRUE SUPERNASTURAL Miraclesw which violate nature- All i Have seen are exampels where God could have used wholly natural means to cure or put into remission sick people- noone has shown me exampels of SUPERNATURAL Miracles which violate natural laws-
[[calling all such liars or deceived souls.]]
I did? Where?
[[refuse to allow any testimonies of the miraculous to be true,]]
I’ve re3fused it? Really?
[[It is you who is wrong here, as your argument was that the lack of the manner of mighty or what you call “true miracles” and instead a lesser class, means God must be weak.]]
The whole premsie of hte discussion started off by the claim that TRUE miracles haven’t ceased- I said TRUE SUPERNATURAL Miracles have ceased- Yuo came back and said miracles still happen, just to a lesser extent- and implied that the giofts the apostles experienced were still available to Christians today- of course I’m goign to ask that IF the gifts are avaialbe today BUT explude TRUE Sueprnatural gifts because they are of a ‘lesser power’ today IF that doesn’t then mean God must not be as powerful as He was? I was asking you that- NOT makign the statement that God was less powerful- Again please refrain from puttign words in my mouth otherwise I’ll just simply treturn the favor and htis conversation can go all to pieces because nothign iof ACTUAL substance will be disgust-
You Do know that spinal chord injuries DO sometimes spontaniously heal naturally, right? And nowhere did I hear what the extent of Bill’s injuries were- do You know the extent of his injuries? Were the inuries lesionso n spine? Or complete severign of the spine? Fracvtures? He didn’t say-
pseudoarthrosis also can spontaniously heal naturally- Where are Delores’ medical records? She is claimign docs said it was a terminal case? Did they inform her it could not heal spontaniously? Again, all we have is her word- NO real factual evidence-
[[Much of what followed from you is too much of a rant to really warrant more of a response]]
In other words- you’re NOT goign to provide exampels that peopel can witness where TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES occure? You’re just goign to ignore the plea and insult me?
{{And what you cannot do is show in Scripture that miracles would cease.}}
Why do I have to? Can you provide evidence that TRUER SUPERNATURAL Miracles which violate the laws of nature are occuring? You’re just goign to point to cases where God could have used natural means to heal a person and imply that htye are ‘close enough’ to true miracles to be called SUPERNATURAL (albiet of lesser quality’) Miracles’?
[[and since in your isolated universe]]
Are you a Christian? If so, Then why do you feel the need to be nasty when rersponding?
[[Yet there are multitudes today that have seen miracles in that leave no doubt in their mind,]]
Really? They must all be rushign to Randi the great for the ten million dollar reward then because htey have irrefutable proof just like htey had in CHrist’s time that TRUER SUOPERNATURAL Miracles are still occurign today
[[You only see what you want to see,]]
Because that is all that is visible- I see plenty of evidnece that God works marvelously to heal people through natural means that ‘baffle the docs’ but which can’t be described as SUPERNATURAL Miracles that Defy Natural law- I see many peopel claim they have been ‘healed’ of thigns that can’t really be verified medically- But when UI read God’s word and See that Jesus restored a Centurion’s ear in an instant (soem say the word ear has been mistranslated and the original word meant HEAD-) I see a TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLE that is NOT in dispute Nor can be thoguht to have occured any other way BUT for a SUPERNATURAL event
[[That is simply not Scriptural, as God did the most miracles in instituting a covenant and new teaching, and which gave attestation to it, as seen in the case of Moses, but this level, did not continue, miracles being more rare, but they still were done. Likewise in Acts we a decreasing record of such, but which is not to be mistaken to mean they ceased]]
Really? Acts 5:16 Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.
I’ll ask again- where are the TRUE SUPERNATURAL Miracels which violate the laws of nature today? The spotles and Christ healed all who came to them, all who were broguht- irregardless of what the ailment or physical problems were- not even death could hinder their healings
[[You only see what you want to see, and dismiss or explain away what you do not.]]
Sigh- So show me the TRUE SUPERNATURAL Miracles which violate natural laws and which can NOT be explained naturally or in any way except for beign supernaturally achieved- The claim was that miracles did not cease I stated that TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES Which violate nature have infact ceased- peopel like yourself jumped all over me for makign that statement- I asked for proof that htey still occure today- and have yet to see anyoen here provide such proof- ALL I’ve seen presented are cases which ‘COULD BE EXPLAINED’ via natural means- AGAIN- the TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES of biblical times could NOT be explaiend that way
And I’ll ask you again to please stop puttign words in my mouth- Yuo are3 inventing things to be upset with me over- apparently wantign to fuel your anger about my asking for proof- Let’s start with somethign small- a missing toe beign replaced at a healing meeting with nothign but a preacher saying “Take off your shoe and sock and witness your new toe” If you can’t provide simpel evidence such as that- and can only provide evidence which is ambiguous and where we simply have to take soemone’s word for it- then I don’t know what else to say- You’ve ended the argument by refusal to back up the claim that God still works true supernatural miracles today
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
[[Of COURSE I have, for you have not answered]]
That’s not the reason you haven’t provided exampels Elsie- the reason you haven’t is because you can’t- now go play your little games elsewhere- Bye Bye
Sorry it does not work that way, God is not a Genie, He does not go puff and do what you want.
I am sorry you are suffering, maybe you should just listen......be still and be with God whatever the answer is.
Sorry brother, God can and is willing to heal everyone with a breath but He does not heal everyone with a breath and there are reasons which I can not answer why.
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