Buchanan: Pope Francis — Against the West?

Human Events ^ | March 15, 2013 | Patrick J. Buchanan

[2ndDivisionVet]

“The Faith is Europe. And Europe is the Faith,” wrote Hilaire Belloc after that bloodbath we call World War I. “Either Europe will return to the Faith or she will perish.”

By 1938, Belloc concluded Christian Europe was done:

“The bad work begun at the Reformation is bearing its final fruit in the dissolution of our ancient doctrines — the very structure of society is dissolving.” He was right. Europe is the dying continent.

And looking back at the history of the Old Continent, we see the truth of G.K. Chesterton’s insight: When men cease to believe in God, they do not then believe in nothing, they will believe in anything.

Consider the idols to which European Man has burnt incense since losing his faith: Darwinism, Marxism, Bolshevism, fascism, Nazism, now globalism — the idea of a secular paradise where mankind’s needs are met by the state and people spend their lives consuming cultural and material goods until the time comes for the painless exit.

Wednesday, even as Europe has said goodbye to Rome, Rome began to say goodbye to Europe, where the fastest growing faith is manifest in the mosques rising from Moscow to Madrid.

The College of Cardinals, for the first time ever, chose a pope from the New World: Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Argentina.

To be exact, Pope Francis is not of the indigenous peoples of the New World. His father was an immigrant from Italy who came to Argentina before he was born. Yet, though by blood an Italian, Pope Francis, heart and soul, does not belong to Europe.....

[MrChips]

You are not a very good student of history. The Church fought tooth and nail against the early socialists of the 19th century (and of the 18th, in the French Revolution). Popes preached repeatedly against the errors of Modernism. And John Paul II with Reagan and Thatcher played a large role in the destruction of socialism and communism in Eastern Europe. The revisionism is yours. Pax vobiscum.

[xzins]

Haven’t smited anyone in ages

Not that I wouldn't like to......

[OneVike]

Read what I said again.

I wrote that it was the Catholics, not the official church but the American Catholics who have overwhelmingly voted for Democrats and Socialistic minded politicians throughout the last century. Even in the new century the majority of Catholics voted for Al Gore, John Kerry (who served in Vietnam by the way), and Obama twice.

I have not revised history, you just failed to properly read what I wrote.

As for supporting Socialist regimes in Europe, it was only after Hitler was dead and out of power that the Catholic Church disowned him and many of his mass-murdering henchmen.

(As an aside, it will be interesting to see if the new Pope will crack down on the many leftist movements inside the Catholic church like the Marxist activities of the South African bishops conference. Who, with funding from European Bishop Conferences, are supporting the SACBC (Southern African Catholic Bishop’s Conference) which are involved knee deep in helping the ANC spread liberation Theology disguised as a Christian movement.)

It is a fact that the Catholic church favors mixing elements of Capitalism with Socialism. Look at most social engineering programs and you will see that except for abortion and the homosexual movement, the church always come down on the side of governments advancing Socialist agendas.

The American catholic Bishops even supported Obama care. It was not until Obama began forcing the church to cover abortion and contraceptives that it began to disagree. The Church could have defeated it, but it supported Obama’s election and the advancement of Socialized medical coverage.

How hypocritical of them. Kind of like Bill Maher now complaining about Californians high tax rates hurting him. now that Obamacare has them in it’s cross hairs, the church is complaining.

I really dislike religious institutions that help destroy my country, and the catholic church has been one of America’s enemy for many, many years. Just like they supported Hitler, they now support his twin, Obama!

All you Catholic Freepers who are defending the church, need to know who you are defending, Obama’s allie!

Not to mention the Catholic Church also supports the Global Warming scam. We can do this all day long if you desire me to.

[MrChips]

And you failed to read what I wrote, which was addressing the Church long-term. You did use the “1000 years” phrase. I simply defended the Church historically. As a convert to Catholicicm, I am more critical of the institution than most. But I defend here, nevertheless, as an historian, which I also am. I also left out the crackdown on the Church in Mexico, which is very much “modern” history. Nor did I mention the current pope’s persection by the leftist government of Argentina. All worth yor consideration.

[Cronos]

biggirl: I have noticed today that there has been postings by non-Catholic Christians who question that the Pope is a believer in Christ just as much as they or we are. Even there was reps from a number of other Christian churches. I just do not understand the harsh postings. This should be a wonderful day for Christians, not just only those who are Christian Catholics.

I think we see the noisy micro-minority of non-Catholics who post such rot and mistakenly think they are the majority.

Most of our non-Catholic Christian brethren do not hold such views.

[xzins]

I am a Methodist Christian, and I am very encouraged by the selection of Francis I. As one living under an episcopal system myself, we sometimes wait for the other shoe to drop. But, you can generally tell from someone’s past where their interests lie. Francis’ interests appear to lie with outreach and authenticity, so I have some real hopes in that regard.

[Cronos]

You may disagree with my perceived problems of the doctrine of purgatory

The thing is that the problems you've stated are perceived, not real. Let me explain:

1. By adhering to Purgatory, the believer claims that Christ not finish his work on the cross. -- incorrect. Purgatory does not replace in any way Christ's work which was and is one-time. Let me explain -- take 2 cases:
a.Person who does not repent and accept Christ even until his/her death-bed. This person does not accept Christ's freely granted salvation, given by the grace of God. They are going to hell as we know it. There is no purgatory for them
b. Person who does repent and is Christ-filled. They are going to heaven. Christ's salvation is what saves them, nothing else. Christ's salvation has been working through them in life to sanctify him to raise him in holiness through Christ's blood to be ready for entry to heaven. final sanctification

2. It is not explicitly found -- not really -- you have Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). and Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." and also the most important is "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59). -- you can't get OUT of hell as we know it, and you don't have to get out of heaven right. So what is this then?

3. "does not cleanse from all sin." -- incorrect. It IS the righteousness of Christ that cleanses from sin, nothing else

4. James 2:24 is remarkably clear: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." and Rom 6:23 " 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord." -- this is clearly stating that while salvation is from Christ's sacrifice alone, the justification as Christ says is not becoming a slave to sin. What does Jesus say saves us?

• Matt. 24:13

  13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

• Matt 25:31-46 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
  35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
  36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words

• 1 Pet. 3:20-21: " It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

• Note -- also in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved -- so Faith is definitely one of the things needed, yet as you see above, it is not ONLY faith. Remember -- James says "even the demons believe - and shudder" -- it is not faith ALONE that saves

  Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God's GRACE. Full-stop.

  James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that

  1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
  2. [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)<,li> [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

  no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that

  He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
  [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
  [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

  So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject

  The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.

  5. "implies that something we must do to be cleansed" -- no, in Purgatory you explicitly can't 'do'. you are being sanctified in readiness for heaven, through Christ's blood alone. Nothing else sanctifies or purifies

[Biggirl]

Plus also they do not represent most of those non-Catholic Christians whom I have noticed have been from those posts that I have seen being that they are very welcoming and supportive of the new Pope.

[Cronos]

I think we’ve had a good line of bishops of Rome since JPII. Each distinct and each bringing a special quality needed. While I appreciate Pope Francis’ simplicity (well he’s a Jesuit after all and I know they take their vows of poverty very seriously — I know Jesuits who literally only own their Bible, their shoes, the clothes they are wearing and one spare), but Pope Benedict’s scholarliness and access to our Lutheran brethren was also key

[PJammers]

Wow! I mentioned almost the same thing on another thread. Pope Francis is somehow different. His mannerisms speak to me. I thought it was just me.

[PJammers]

Brother Cronos,

I can’t say that I haven’t offended anyone in these threads. I did so mainly out of ignorance and how I approached the person. I’m not Catholic, but I’m pretty sure the Pope is Christian. :-)

[OneVike]

What part of, “It is Finished”, do you not understand? The dead know nothing but what their fate is. There is no praying for the dead, and there are no more blessings to be brought for the dead that they did not gain while they were alive.

You come off like you are trying to educate me on the benefits of “Purgatory”, all the while admitting I am right, that it does not and never has existed.

All works do is prove ones faith. As James says, without works, ones faith is dead. So those of us who have faith are saved, but if we do not act upon that faith by advancing the Kingdom Of God by working, then chances are we truly are not saved.

Works are the proof of our salvation, just like the fruits on a fig tree is the proof the tree is healthy. Like the fig tree that Christ cursed and thus it withered and died, so to is the works of a Christian. They are dead in their faith if they do not desire to work for Christ.

As for Purgatory, there is no works one can do while alive that will effect any dead Christian. Other than bringing a sinner to Christ, and advancing the Kingdom of God on earth, the benefits one receives from their works for Christ can only be received by the one doing the works.

No dead Christian will ever be effected by the works of those who are still living in the world, because the dead know nothing of the world and the living cannot effect the blessing of the dead.

[Salvation]

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HABEMUS PAPAM!!! (Live Thread)

[Cronos]

What part of "It is finished" do you not understand?

Christ said very clearly that He provided us the salvation, and He works IN our lives to sanctify us, this ending in the purgatory/final sanctification before heaven for those saved.

Read the Bible and you will see that
you were savedRom. 8:24 " For we are saved by hope:"
you are being saved Phil. 2:12 " Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation."
you will be saved 1 Cor. 3:12–15 "12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

.

The Bible does not contradict itself, it is clear that Christ's sacrifice was one-time salvation for our sins.

Those who repent, believe, eat of His body and blood and endure to the end accept this salvation

They are sanctified for heaven, right up to the final sanctification/purgatory

If you, OneVike say All works do is prove ones faith. then you contradict the Bible which says "with fear and trembling work out your salvation." and "If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

You say "No dead Christian will ever be effected by the works of those who are still living in the world, because the dead know nothing of the world and the living cannot effect the blessing of the dead." yet ignoring scripture ""In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45)"

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

[OneVike]

You are wrong in so many ways.

It only makes sense, since you would ascribe to Catholic doctrine that uses the book of Maccabees as reference. The book of Maccabees is not inspired by God. It is at best a historical record, and nothing more.

I have many problems with the doctrine of Purgatory, along with other elements of Catholicism, and I feel pushed to state them. So I will elaborate on them in an article I will post within the next week. However, I am at the moment preparing myself for Easter festivities so I am currently too preoccupied to take on the task.

I will ping you when I post the article.

Sound fair?

I expect a lot of feedback from my fellow Catholic Freepers, and I expect it will not be positive. However, I do expect it to be a thread to be remembered.

Don’t feel especially targeted though, because I plan on doing the same with Mormonism. I guess by the time I am finished I will have lost many a friendship I have built up through my 15 years on FR.

[Cronos]

Actually, you are the one who's wrong -- I gave you scriptural references and you reply back with your own logic which is extra-scriptural

Why?

What part of "It is finished" do you not understand?

Christ said very clearly that He provided us the salvation, and He works IN our lives to sanctify us, this ending in the purgatory/final sanctification before heaven for those saved.

Read the Bible and you will see that
you were savedRom. 8:24 " For we are saved by hope:"
you are being saved Phil. 2:12 " Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation."
you will be saved 1 Cor. 3:12–15 "12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

.

The Bible does not contradict itself, it is clear that Christ's sacrifice was one-time salvation for our sins.

Those who repent, believe, eat of His body and blood and endure to the end accept this salvation

They are sanctified for heaven, right up to the final sanctification/purgatory

If you, OneVike say All works do is prove ones faith. then you contradict the Bible which says "with fear and trembling work out your salvation." and "If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

[Cronos]

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.