Posted on 02/11/2013 12:14:15 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
In certain passages of scripture it says that tithes are to be given to the Levites, and then the Levites were to give a tenth to the priests. In other scriptures is says to bring ye the tithe into the storehouse, that my house may be full.
Deuteronomy 26:12 says that every third year, that in addition to giving to the Levites, some of the tithe must go to widows, orphans, (the down-and-out), etc.
Now, if in modern times we give tithes to our local church that we attend and tithes are then used to pay for the pastors salary (them being the modern Levite equivalency), youth pastors salary, staff salary, utility bills, etc, why isn't a portion of this shared with widows, orphans, etc?
I mean, if cash is given to pastors through tithes, why doesn't cash go to widows every third year? With the scriptures saying to pay tithes unto Levites every year, and then every third year repeating this but adding in widows for example, that ties in widows with getting part of the tithe.
Some might say that widows, the down-and-out, etc, can receive cash assistance from the gov't. But if widows, orphans, the down-and-out, etc, can go to the gov't for help, why don't we send pastors there, too?
And if widows, orphans, the down-and-out, etc, can go to churches and get help at these church food banks, why don't those same churches send their pastors to the church food bank(s)?
If widows don't get a portion of the tithe every 3 years, then what do you do with the tithe for the pastor that 3rd year?
Then just tell us, Snark. Honestly, its none of my business what you give, but its also not my job to humor you in your attempt to turn a simple discussion of tithing into some sort of pseudo-Socratic cross-examination. Get to your point, fella, I couldn’t care less how brilliant you think you are.
Tithing is law. Believers are free from the law and, yet, seek to meet it in spirit and truth. That is, we are free to give or not but fools if we do not yield all we possess to the Lord.
Having said that, I do not believe in supporting the ‘works’ of the modern church as you describe. Salaries, bills, insurance and (worst of all) mortgages for million dollar temples. Feed the hungry, care for the sick, provide for the widows and fatherless. A simple look around today will provide more opportunities to give of yourself and your resources than you could meet in a lifetime.
Let the bulk of idiocy in modern ‘Christian’ culture find its own financing.
Nothing of consequence for me. You're the one who seems to have difficulty in discerning the implications of the words, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;" (i.e., the prophets of the old testament).
However, if you do the research in the Torah, I think you'll find, if you go back to the original texts, "tithing" was not a commandment but a recommendation.
My opinion is that most people don’t tithe. They throw in a 10 or 20.
A pastor told me recently that he had someone write a check for $3. You gotta wonder what that’s all about.
I am sympathetic to your point of view, but this doesn’t mean that one doesn’t give at all, it just means that the tithe goes to another Christian cause. No?
This government has taken over the task of supposedly caring for those in need.
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Those of you who hate Catholics and Mormons should probably not read any further than this.
In the godless society our country is becoming perhaps there is a need for what the government does. Whatever the government does it absolves no church that follows Christ from its duty to take care of the poor, widow and the orphan.
It is very shameful that there are churches who give only a tiny amount of support for those categories of people. I noticed that the Catholic Church however supports Catholic charities and does much to help those in need throughout the world.
I notice also that the LDS church spends a great deal of money on caring for those in need. The LDS church has a loan program in the Third World to help its members become educated above and beyond their welfare system. Members who would like to use the loan program can borrow money to be used for education and can then pay it back upon completion if they feel they can. Members donate money to the program and successfully educated members donate money into the program so that there are always funds growing in the program. The LDS give not only a fish but also a hook.
Catholic charities and the LDS give money to people regardless of their church affiliation or faith in many cases and never ask for any it to be repaid.
I believe that charity is one of the signs of true love of Christ. When I see churches that have no outreach program but simply teach for filthy Luker I feel like I see a church that has lost the love of Christ in it.
When I have questioned ministers of churches that do not have an outreach or charity program yet have radio and television programs that bring in the vast majority of their income and asked them why. They tell me that their job is to preach the word of Christ and educate people about the Savior and that they are doing that. Maybe I’m hardhearted but I don’t believe it.
James said “ show me your works and I will show you your faith”, I say “show me your charity and I will show you your love of Christ”.
It is sickening that anybody would think that the law of tithing is done away with or that because of taxes we are absolved of the responsibility. Of course taxes were paid in the day of Christ on the earth. Why do you think Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem. Why do you think the Lord said give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars?
Tithing is 10%.
Tithing is given every year. It just goes to different causes in different years. While I have no scriptural reference to back it up I do believe that if tithings are dispersed to all needs every year then the one third requirements can be done away with as long as needs are met. Again I have no scriptural authority to back that up.
Levite priests were unable to raise food for themselves because they didn’t have land their sole means of support had to be their work as Levites. The Levites did not live a lavish lifestyle. People were Levites by birthright, being born into a Levite family sentenced you to a life of priestly function. There were a few Levites who became leaders and therefore managed to make money but for the most part Levites were poor,much more like Catholic priests then Protestant Ministers Who drive Cadillacs or Mercedes-Benz.
When I was a young man many ministers were poor, today I see just the opposite. When I was a young man the thought of entering the priesthood or the government was to serve, now it is to be served. To me it is shameful for a priest or minister who lives off of tithes and offerings to have a better lifestyle than to those to whom he preaches. It is just as sickening however to see those who lord over us in government have salaries way in excess of the average in our communities who pay them.
I don’t know what anyone else has said about it, but here goes my answer on that.
Christ fullfilled the law perfectly, he never sinned. Why is he the savior of the world? Because he was God come down in human form, who lived a perfect life and defeated sin and death. The law was given before Christ, and HE followed the law.
>>Good luck - Now this thread will probably turn into a mormon bashing thread so rather than follow up I will go now and cling to my bible and shop for ammo online:)
You’ve got an online ammo source that still has stock??
Seriously, volunteer pastors are a great idea. 60% of my church budget goes to salaries. Imagine what we could do with volunteers.
The Law didn't tell man to not commit adultery because it was designed to be anti fun, it was to define what is sin to God.
TITHING was a command given by God in the Old Testament. And though we no longer live UNDER the law, but under grace, the law is still useful in showing what is right in Gods eyes.
No one today (at least with any integrity) would say, that since we are no longer under the law we are free to have as much sex as we want with as many people (or animals) as we want. There are numerous vs in the New Testament that talk about proper or improper sexual relations.
Likewise giving. We may no longer live UNDER the law, but the law STILL tells us what is right in Gods eyes.
There are no specifics in the NT about giving. But then again there are no specifics in the NT about alot of things. Show me in the NT where abortion is SPECIFICALLY talked about. And yet we use the Bible, rightfully, to know Gods stand on it.
No less does this apply to giving.
The important question is not
"does God command me to give 10%?"
or
"is that 10% pre tax or post tax?"
The important question is FOLLOWED by knowing Gods heart on giving, and then asking God "what would you have me give".
Now IF one is rationalizing continuously giving less than 10%, I'd say they are out of touch with Gods heart on the matter of giving.
The median household income in the US is about 26,500 after taxes. That’s roughly 500 a week, and a tithe would be 50 a week.
A church of 100 people would have roughly 25 households, so their giving would be about 1250 a week.
That’s about 65,000 a year. No one is getting rich.
Assuming they give their pastor a standard of living equivalent to their own, that would take 500 a week + social security + med + health + pension. Let’s make it 800. That leaves 450 for building utilities and church programs, to include widows and orphans.
It’s possible they retain merely a preacher instead of a pastor, and he has another job to support himself and his family, so he would simply receive whatever their hearts led them to believe was the right thing to do for him.
They would still have the costs of building + utilities, but they should have more money for programming, to include outreach.
Your numbers are interesting, but the average attendence of US churches is about 200 while the average membership is much larger.
Your numbers are true for a church of 100 but that is not the norm.
Only about 20% of members of an average church attend regularly so if there are 100 in attendance then there are likely 400 to 500 members. That would make your number of $65000 actually more like a quarter million on the low side. Surely with that income a pastor could support himself, the property and have some left over for charity.
The median membership of churches in the USA is 76. That means half of the churches are larger and half are smaller. It is better than an average, since there are huge megachurches that make average (mean) a less useful number. Most American churches are under 500 members.
The same with disposable household income in America. The median is just under 27,000. We know that those who make huge amounts more than that would throw off the average and make it significantly higher.
As to the idea that non-attending members give, I’d say that doesn’t happen, and I say it from long experience.
More than that, they don’t TITHE. So the $50, I’m talking about as a tithe is generally ten or 20 bucks.
The tone of your post seems to suggest that churches are spending too much money taking care of pastors but not enough taking care of the poor. Is that your point and if so what is the basis for your conclusions and where is your data to back up your “charges”?
You can become an elder in a church and have more of a direct say in how the money is being spent. But i am not sure why it is any of your business how individual churches spend their money used to teach and spread the gospel.
“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. “ (Matthew 5:20)
I think that a mere 10% should be preached as a bare minimum, and the above class gave over 30% of total goods by at least one estimation, but that the NT does not preach 10% giving but 100%, (Rm. 12:1) so that you purpose to make all work toward the kingdom of God, and basically try to live on maybe about 10% for personal things and 90% to support the work of the ministry.
My church supports a food bank, a prison ministry and an after school mentoring program at a local middle school in the down and out part of town.
Unfortunately, many churches seem to focus on prayer ministry and building projects with the occasional mission trip or sponsored orphans, with little focus on actual lifting up of the rest of the world.
Your divise postings are a puzzlement.
Are you not aware that ALL parishes have an Emergency or Caritas Fund to care for the poor?
Money goes to the Church and the ministries. The pastor accepts a salary — that is it. Your assumptions are wrong in my opinion.
Your divisive postings
Christians should give as the Lord leads. Personally I give to my Church, AND to orphanages (one in Romania), and a lot of other good charities.
Also, Tithing is not “give 10% to the church”. It’s a benefit to us, and we get to participate in God’s economy.
Tithing was under the old law. We are under the new. You don’t get an “award” for legalistic tithing. But why would you not want to give, if you are a TRUE believer?
Jesus was asked about tithing, he commented that some folks even tithe their herbs growing in their garden, but then are not pure of heart...
“Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.”
Jesus came to fulfill the law, and to call us to a greater higher standard.....it’s really pretty easy to give someone 10% (we give the government much more), but to REALLY care about someone is HARD.
It’s a cultural reality, in today’s world, most of the women in need of care from the church are the younger divorcees or unmarried mothers. That group is more likely to need help from the Stephen Ministries or other Deacon related church support than true widows, who in our modern society, if they remained married long enough to be widowed, are much more likely to be financially stable. The rerverse was true in Biblical times. So, to answer, my support is common sense plus historical metamorphisis.
I don’t think your premise considers budgeting for an organization, in this case a church. They have to pay to heat and light the church, to cut the grass and repair the roof. Plumbing fails, HVAC must be replaced periodically, walls need painting. Just like homeowners, they have to have a reserve for repairs or to offset times when collections don’t meet expenses.
I never heard of a church that doesn’t have funds to help the poor, whether in their own community or across the country or around the globe. Many churches send missions overseas or support missionary families. And they are there to help out a struggling family with their grocery or utility bills or unanticipated auto repair.
It’ a fallacy to think that the tithes collected (where actual tithes are donated) go to the minister and staff only or that they don’t take care of struggling poor, whether widowed or not. It would be aBiblical to announce their good works, wouldn’t it?
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