Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church

Reuters ^ | January 22, 2013 | om Heneghan

[NYer]

PARIS (Reuters) - Two leading Lutheran clerics have rejected suggestions from the Vatican that it could create a subdivision for converted Lutherans similar to its structures for Anglicans who join the Roman Catholic Church.

The dispute, concerning tiny numbers of believers but major issues in ecumenical relations, comes as the churches mark the annual Week of Prayer for Christian Unity this week.

Rev Martin Junge, the Chilean-born secretary general of the World Lutheran Federation (WLF), said in a statement that the suggestion caused great concern and would "send wrong signals to LWF member churches around the world."

Bishop Friedrich Weber, the German Lutheran liaison with the Catholic Church, said the idea was unthinkable and amounted to "an unecumenical incitement to switch sides."

The Vatican announced special structures for disaffected Anglicans in 2009, creating a so-called ordinariate so conservatives opposed to female and homosexual bishops could become Catholic while retaining some of their traditions.

Several thousand Anglicans, including dozens of priests and a few bishops, have joined ordinariates established in England, Australia and Canada. Married clergy are exempted from the obligatory celibacy of the Catholic priesthood.

Relations among Christian churches have improved greatly since the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council and most now see each other more as partners than as competitors. A Catholic bishop attended an ecumenical service Weber celebrated last Sunday.

But this Vatican welcome has raised suspicions among some Protestants that the Catholic Church, which makes up half the world's 2.2 billion Christians, now wants to woo away believers from smaller churches torn by internal debate.

While the Vatican's opening to Anglicans followed years of bitter public splits in that church, few of the world's 75 million Lutherans seem interested in reunification with Rome.

Cardinal Kurt Koch, head of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, said the Vatican would consider creating an ordinariate if Lutherans asked for one.

[Elsie]

Financial Blessings for you!

Malachi 3:10
I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in!

[Cronos]

Delicate matter here. I've pinged Lutherans I know.

Firstly, in bold: this is really targetted at the Lutheran "churches" in Europe as far as I can see -- and I put that "churches" in quotes because I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong, Belt, CH, red), that folks from the traditional/orthodoxy WELS or LCMS would consider the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany or those of scandanavia to be somewhat apostate -- almost as much as the ELCA

Secondly, keeping the above in mind, I believe that most of our Lutheran Christian brothers in the USA would not want to join this ordinariate and I respect their feelings -- they are able to disagree with us Catholics and yet not smear mud, so we should accord them the same respect -- definitely on FR, there are disagreements and arguments and deep theological disputes between Lutherans and Catholics now, but we both are able to keep a civil tone -- we should not lose that.

Thirdly, keeping the above 2 points in mind, what this ordinariate is providing in Europe is a life-line to the orthodox members still inside the Evangelical European Lutheran Churches. This will enable them to take a step away from liberal groups that have sadly taken over their denominations

This of course is a place to come to -- they don't have to take it, they can of course form an orthodox Lutheran denomination or WELS/LCMC can help them. This is just another lifeline. Note -- there is not much appeal for the Baptist or pentecostal groups among the faithful in Western and northern Europe -- theology aside, the appeal for these based on their rituals remains in the global south to a large extent.

Many Lutherans deeply feel Christ in their Lutheran orthodox prayers and divine liturgical celebrations

[Cronos]

Ya think? I’d say that is pretty transparently their plan. Of course, the Protestant churches are playing right into their hands by continuing to liberalize their churches, thereby driving away the most faithful believers.

Well, not looking to fight, but let's not use the blanket term "Protestant" -- the Lutherans are far, far closer theologically to orthodoxy than Baptists -- and I say that with respect to your beliefs, just pointing out that they are closer to us

This is the Church of the Holy Trinity in Warsaw for example

Ok, now, I don't believe most of the non-Catholic groups are doing this driving away.

Some, like the Anglicans or Lutherans have large denominations that have fallen. The Methodists (xzins, ping) are still fighting the liberals -- I believe we need to help them in that fight -- preferable to have a Methodist Church that is orthodox and conservative yet disagrees with the Catholic Church, rather than a liberal UMC that is pro-gay etc. and still disagrees with the Catholic Church...

[xzins]

preferable to have a Methodist Church that is orthodox and conservative yet disagrees with the Catholic Church, rather than a liberal UMC that is pro-gay etc. and still disagrees with the Catholic Church...

Actually, Cronos, there was a sense in which Methodism, a child of Anglicanism, did keep its eye on the Episcopal church. For many years we were the Methodist Episcopal Church, due to our governance by Bishops and not due to affinity for the ECUSA, but nonetheless, there was that element of giving heed to Anglicanism's representative in our US of A.

Then the Episcopals went bonkers with liberal theology. Methodism did likewise. They lost their candlestick, but Methodism has a holy remnant that clings tenaciously to theirs.

As a replacement for that eye we kept on Episcopalianism, I would have no problem with that being replaced with the African Primates of Anglicanism, but I suspect their connections to Anglicanism will continue to be a burden for them. They appear to be turning an eye toward Rome for support in their trial. They appear to be receiving it.

I have no problem looking toward Rome for support of a theology of Life, of true Christian Unity, and of belief in a real resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Protestantism of Luther is all but dead.

[Mr. Lucky]

The protestantism of Luther is all but dead

Ummm, kind of a gratuitously cheap shot, don't you think?

[fattigermaster]

Surprised? RCSOP

[xzins]

No, I don’t think so. The only non-liberal Lutheranism that I know of is Missouri and Wisconsin Synod that might number about 2.5 million combined.

And Luther was no theological liberal.

[Belteshazzar]

So, numbers mean what?

What percentage of the world’s population was Palestine in 30 A.D.? And then what percentage of Palestine’s population followed the Christ? The numbers were pretty small. That’s one way to answer you and your assumptions.

Another way to answer would be ask how many “Lutherans” are there in the Catholic church and the Orthodox church and in the various Protestant brands? More than most people think.

Finally, Lutheranism, or more properly put, adherence to the faith confessed in the Book of Concord (which begins with, and is founded on, the three ecumenical creeds), is not a church. It is a confession. It never made any pretense of being more than that. There is but one holy Catholic/Christian Church. Entry to it is afforded by faith. Its numbers are known to God alone.

Lutherans serious about their faith (and you are right, this would not include the clergy of, for example, the ELCA) are not too worried about numbers. That, they understand, is pretty much in God’s hands. Their concern is faithful confession of the Triune God into whose name all Christians are baptized and of Jesus Christ in whom alone there is forgiveness, life, and salvation.

So, no, I don’t think Lutherans are anywhere near as close to extinction as some would like to imagine.

[Belteshazzar]

Nice church, Cronos. Love the name. It looks Lutheran ... or, perhaps, I should say, “Lutheran.”

[xzins]

Belteshazzar, I am a Methodist ordained elder. Would it help to understand my point if I were also to affirm that the Methodism of Wesley is all but dead?

[Mr. Lucky]

What you said.

[Belteshazzar]

No. Apples and oranges. Methodism has no equivalent to the Lutheran Confessions.

[Belteshazzar]

Also, per your statement: “The Protestantism of Luther is all but dead.”

Luther was not a Protestant. That is a pejorative label affixed later by ... ah ... a very large religious affiliation with its headquarters in a very famous southern European city.

Lutherans are not Protestants. Remember, there were two reformations, a first and conservative one, and then a second, radical one. The Lutherans (also, by the way, a pejorative term affixed by the same entity) are children of the first, the Methodists of the second.

[xzins]

I didn’t ask if you knew the confessions of Methodism, I was indicating that the movement is decreasing and not increasing.

Whatever.

Have a great evening.

[xone]

ph

[Campion]

Luther was not a Protestant. That is a pejorative label affixed later by ... ah ... a very large religious affiliation with its headquarters in a very famous southern European city.

Not quite. The "Protestants" were those who adhered to the "protestation", a petition to the Imperial Diet of Speyer in 1529. The purpose of the petition was to ask that the Imperial ban against Luther and Lutheranism be lifted.

[Belteshazzar]

Yes, a very nice piece of historical observation regarding a fine (and true) point. But it has very little to do with the 485 years of history that have elapsed since then ... unless, that is, you consider that the rules of that Imperial Diet were both inviolable and perpetual, so much so that the charge leveled at that time must be continually brought up, decried, and revisited.

Viewed more generally, Protestantism as a term in use for a few centuries is now freighted with historical/theological meaning - all of which have little to do with 1529 Speyer - describing as they do a certain mindset, theological mindset, vis-a-vis the history and traditions of the visible Christian (or if you prefer, Catholic) church. Protestants in this sense are protestors of Rome and her perceived innovations and accretions. Their operating principle was to cast aside everything practiced by Rome as if all such were of equal value or non-value, and then leave in their absence only the Bible, bare, unconnected to all the history and understanding that followed. In this sense, Lutherans are not Protestant. They are not descendants of the second and radically anti-Catholic Reformation, but of the first and conservative Reformation which distinguished between those things that were innovations and those that were clearly traditions, practices, customs built on Scriptural, apostolic foundations, which, if not plainly deleterious to the faith were allowed to stand. In other words, Scripture for the Lutherans was the final touchstone of orthodoxy, but traditional practices were not to be brushed aside without careful consideration of their whys and wherefores. The gold and silver and precious stones built on the apostolic foundation were to be retained, the wood, hay, and straw to be discarded.

[Cronos]

In Poland they call themselves Ewangelicko-Augsburgu :)

Quite frankly, this church was where I learnt that most of what I thought I knew about Lutherans was wrong. I lived right next to it from July to October 2010 and also went for Polish language classes with a German woman studying to be a pastoress (but studying this in Warsaw!)

I cannot find myself getting into a stinker of a fight with a person who believes in Christ present in the Eucharist during worship. To me, that sense gives one a belief in Christ within you in a special way -- not the Hindu "you are divine" but God is in you, working through and with you once you accept him. A discussion, debate, disagreement even argument, but I cannot get into a knock-down, stinker fight

[lightman]

Lutheran Ping!

Be rooted in Christ!

[Conservativegreatgrandma]

This is most amusing.