Posted on 01/04/2013 7:15:20 AM PST by xzins
—We choose to follow God, receive His Son as Lord and Savior this side. In eternity, we will see that it was all part of His designed plan.—
Which is what I am saying. God KNOWS, but we CHOOSE. He doesn’t predestine and choose for us, but he KNOWS.
“Which is what I am saying. God KNOWS, but we CHOOSE. He doesn’t predestine and choose for us, but he KNOWS.”
I think what we are dealing with is the imprecision of language. To say “HE doesn’t predestine...” when we read, “those He foreknew He did predestinate...” is to be inaccurate, imprecise, while to say he does not choose for us is correct. And, to say that He KNOWS and not understand that to mean He has therefore predestinated us (in Acts we read that Christ was “...delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God...” to be slain is, likewise to be inaccurate.
And then, concerning God choosing, what of this:
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Has God chosen them (and chosen FOR them) for wrath? The text indicates yes (when taken by itself). But in the context of all scripture, Christ died for these, as well. They have chosen to reject Him. God, knowing this from the beginning of beginnings chooses to use these for His purposes nonetheless.
In matters such as these, I often think of time (in the human sense)—a line segment having a starting point and going forward toward some end point (out into the future somewhere). At that end point, time will stop and be no more. But there will still exist eternity, and now the line segment will be compared against a line that stretches back into eternity past and out into eternity to come. I like to think of this as God-time. We, trapped in finite human-time, cannot comprehend such things. David said, “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it” (Psalm 139). How can we fully understand the purposes of God with finite minds trapped inside finite time and space (but one day we will know even as we are known).
So...God gives us His word, reveals His character and nature through them (and, most of all, through His Son). And, one day, we will see that He knew the end from the beginning (He was viewing our finite line segment of time from His infinite eternal line of time—ugh, sounding worse and worse here) and we will see that He chose us from before the foundations of the world! We will see that before we were formed in the womb, He knew us. He knew our down-sittings and our up-risings. He knew us from before that line segment! How can we say He did not choose us? How can we say that He did not predestinate us?
Reading and knowing these things, how can we not CHOOSE to follow Him!
I have never suggested we didn’t make our choices.
But, I’ve also stated that God knows the saved and the unsaved, and He has known since before creation.
The BIBLE says, “those He foreknew He PREDESTINED.”
Perhaps some don’t like the Bible word “predestined”, but it is in there, and we do have to deal with it. It is not “predestining” anything to sit around fat dumb and happy while letting events unfold. That’s called being pushed around by circumstances outside your control.
“Predestining”, on the other hand, would be intentionally creating a world in which every conceivable course of action were already known.
I see what you are saying. I feel that Paul is speaking collectively of the church and christians when He says that things are predestined. That Christ does have a purpose for his church. Which I agree. I do not feel that it refers to individual persons. And again. God knows what’s going to happen, but doesn’t choose for us (I know you aren’t stating that, but I wanted to state it again).
If God is all-knowing (and He is), then He can’t know a group (like the Church) and not know its members. If He doesn’t know its members, then He is not all-knowing.
He IS all-knowing, so He does know its individual members.
—If God is all-knowing (and He is), then He can’t know a group (like the Church) and not know its members. If He doesn’t know its members, then He is not all-knowing.
He IS all-knowing, so He does know its individual members.—
He is all knowing and knows who is going to choose to become members, but He doesn’t choose for them to be members. He has a chore and a idea of what He wants the general church to accomplish. That is what he is “predestined”. I am not saying He doesn’t know who will be in His church. I am saying he hasn’t predestined specific people to be in it.
The following 2 verses says He does predestine individuals. Groups aren’t called and justified, individuals are. And, it is definitely individuals who are adopted.
Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Romans 8:30 And THOSE he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined US to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
THOSE and US are both general terms. If speaking individually, it would “each of us”. Those is used to describe a group. Those chairs, those football players. Not those football player.
Sorry, Justice, but God doesn’t justify and adopt groups. He justifies and adopts individuals.
Would you tell a group that they’re saved because they’re Floridians? Presbyterians? Baptists? etc.?
—Would you tell a group that they’re saved because they’re Floridians? Presbyterians? Baptists? etc.?—
No, but He refers to His Church specifically throughout the Bible. He has a plan for His Church. And He has made that plan known and predestined it. Who makes up that Church is known by Christ, but not predestined and not chosen. People in the world choose whehter to be apart of that Church that Christ has predestined for great things.
Like a train. It’s predestined to go to a location. But it’s the individual that decides to get on AND stay on the whole ride. Thus is the church. It’s predestined to do great things, reach people, etc. But it’s up to individuals to get in and stay in. God knows who will, but doesn’t choose it for us.
The Church is the redeemed ones. Do you believe that joining a church saves you?
—The Church is the redeemed ones. Do you believe that joining a church saves you?—
Nope. Not even close. Paul was talking to the original church. The group of redeemed people. Saying that their collective, being the church of Christ, is predestined to do great things. Not each individual, the church as a group.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved .
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
So, you are saying that ALL in that paragraph is to groups and not to individuals? Since Paul addresses the letter to "the saints" that isn't likely since each of the recipients is a "saint".
Now, if every use of a plural pronoun means it is applied only to a group and not to an individual, then that means that verse 7 should shake you, "7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,", applies to the group and not to individuals.
For that would mean that YOUR redemption and YOUR forgiveness do not apply to you, but to some kind of group consciousness. The group is redeemed, but not the individuals.
Is that what you believe?
2 Thessalonians 2:13 [Stand Firm] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
The above underline is an example that when addressing a plurality that the individuals are the focus.
Quick question. Why does this matter? I don’t believe in the Elect and predestination. You do. We are aligned on basically everything except that. To go back to the analogy of the train.
I believe that the train (church) is predestined to achieve something and go somewhere. I believe we personally have a choice to get on board and to stay on board. I believe we can get off the train as well.
You believe that each person is that train and that it’s destined to go somewhere. Correct?
Because you joined a sideline discussion of predestination at post #90 is the reason we began discussing it.
If you mean, "Why is this important to me?", then:
1. It's a positive thing for bible believers to sharpen their bible understanding with each other. (as iron sharpens iron...)
2. It's good to have an accurate understanding of the Bible.
3. It's good to have a correct view of God.
Sideline discussion? This is a public forum. If you don’t want people to interrupt or throw their 2 cents in, mail eachother.
I agree with all your points. I just disagree with the elect and predestination idea.
By sideline discussion, I meant that it wasn’t specific to the topic of the thread. There are all kinds of sideline discussions on FR every day and just about every thread. I have no problem with them. I was pointing out that you joined the predestination sideline discussion at #90.
I know you disagree ..... now... :>)
Haha. Have a good day.
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