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To: justice14
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved .

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

So, you are saying that ALL in that paragraph is to groups and not to individuals? Since Paul addresses the letter to "the saints" that isn't likely since each of the recipients is a "saint".

Now, if every use of a plural pronoun means it is applied only to a group and not to an individual, then that means that verse 7 should shake you, "7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,", applies to the group and not to individuals.

For that would mean that YOUR redemption and YOUR forgiveness do not apply to you, but to some kind of group consciousness. The group is redeemed, but not the individuals.

Is that what you believe?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 [Stand Firm] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The above underline is an example that when addressing a plurality that the individuals are the focus.

113 posted on 01/09/2013 10:16:01 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

Quick question. Why does this matter? I don’t believe in the Elect and predestination. You do. We are aligned on basically everything except that. To go back to the analogy of the train.

I believe that the train (church) is predestined to achieve something and go somewhere. I believe we personally have a choice to get on board and to stay on board. I believe we can get off the train as well.

You believe that each person is that train and that it’s destined to go somewhere. Correct?


114 posted on 01/09/2013 10:24:31 AM PST by justice14 ("stand up defend or lay down and die")
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