Posted on 01/04/2013 7:15:20 AM PST by xzins
11 Biblical Tests of Genuine Salvation -
In 1746, about six years after the Great Awakening, in which Jonathan Edwards was the primary instrument of God to preach the gospel and bring about the greatest revival in American history thus far, Edwards wrote A Treatise Concerning the Religious Affections. He wrote it to deal with a problem not unlike one we face today: the matter of evidence for true conversion. Many people want the blessings of salvation, especially eternal security, but no more.
In the explosive drama of the Great Awakening, it seemed as though conversions were occurring in great numbers. However, it didn't take long to realize that some people claimed conversions that were not real. While various excesses and heightened emotional experiences were common, scores of people didn't demonstrate any evidence in their lives to verify their claim to know and love Jesus Christ, which led critics to attack the Great Awakening, contending it was nothing but a big emotional bath without any true conversions.
Thus, partly in defense of true conversion and partly to expose false conversion, Jonathan Edwards took up his pen. He came to this simple conclusion. The supreme proof of a true conversion is what he called "holy affections," which are a zeal for holy things and a longing after God and personal holiness. He made a careful distinction between saving versus common operations of the Holy Spirit. Saving operations obviously produce salvation. Common operations of the Holy Spirit, he said, "may sober, arrest and convict men, and may even bring them to what at first appears to be repentance and faith, yet these influences fall short of inward saving renewal" (lain H. Murray, Jonathan Edwards: A New Biography [Carlisle, Pa.: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1987], p. 255).
How can you tell whether the Holy Spirit has performed a saving operation? As the principle evidence of life is motion, Edwards wrote, so the principle evidence of saving grace is holy practice (pp. 262-63). He said true salvation always produces an abiding change of nature in a true convert. Therefore, whenever holiness of life does not accompany a confession of conversion, it must be understood that this individual is not a Christian.
In the very year Edwards' treatise was published, popular teaching asserted that, to the contrary, the only real evidence of true salvation is a feeling based on an experience--usually the experience at the moment of the alleged conversion. That teaching introduces the prevalent but erroneous concept that a person's true spiritual state is known by a past experience rather than a present pursuit of holiness. Edwards flatly contradicted that notion: "Assurance is never to be enjoyed on the basis of a past experience. There is need of the present and continuing work of the Holy Spirit ... [in] giving assurance" (p. 265). This is no esoteric theological debate: the substance of your assurance is at stake.
A number of New Testament writers, of course, were very concerned about this matter of true salvation, as was our Lord Jesus Himself. The apostle John dedicated his first letter to the subject, stating his theme at the end: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13). Throughout the letter is a series of tests to determine whether you possess eternal life. If you don't pass these tests, you'll know where you stand and what you need to do. If you do, you'll have reason to enjoy your eternal salvation with great assurance.
1- Do You Enjoy Fellowship with Christ and the Father?Jesus is Lord!
This is an essential element in true salvation and the first test John presented. Look with me at chapter 1, which begins: "We [John and his fellow apostles] have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ" (vv. 2-3). Obviously he was going beyond just the earthly acquaintance he had with Jesus because he had no such earthly acquaintance with the Father. Rather, he was presently enjoying communion with the living God and the living Christ.
Now at first you might be tempted to think, Well, good for John, but his was not an isolated experience. In 1 John 5:1, he says, "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him" (emphasis added). It is characteristic of any believer to love God and Christ. It is a sign of the holy affections Jonathan Edwards spoke of. A relationship with God is basic to salvation. It is what we as believers were called to. "God is faithful," Paul says, "through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor 1:9).
Paul described what that fellowship meant to him personally: "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself up for me" (Gal 2:20). There's something very experiential about that truth--it's not just a cold fact that we as believers have divine life living in us; there's an experience to be enjoyed in knowing God intimately.
Jesus implied as much when He said, "I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly" (John 10: 10). If He had just said, "I came that you may have life," we could conclude He was talking only about His gracious provision of eternal life. By adding that life could be abundant, Jesus was moving into the dimension of experience. The Christian life is a rich life. We're meant to experience joy, peace, love, and purpose. When someone who's about to be baptized testifies about coming to Christ, you won't hear, "The fact is, folks, I'm saved, and I'm just here to announce that." Invariably the person will describe to you the feeling--the overwhelming sense of forgiveness and purpose in his or her life.
Here's a taste of the abundant life Scripture describes in terms of our fellowship with the Lord. The "God of all comfort" (2 Cor 1:3); "the God of all grace" (1 Peter 5:10); the God who supplies all [our] needs according to His riches in Christ (Phil. 4:19); the God who leads us to speak to one another in psalms and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in our hearts to Him (Eph 5:19); the God to whom we cry "Abba! Father!" (Rom 8:15) like little children to the daddy we adore; the God we draw near to in time of trouble (Heb 4:16)--He Himself so greatly enriches us. Our fellowship with Him is the abundant life we experience.
Have you experienced communion with God and Christ? Have you sensed Their presence? Do you have a love for Them that draws you to Their presence? Have you experienced the sweet communion of prayer--the exhilarating joy of talking to the living God? Have you experienced the refreshing, almost overwhelming sense of grace that comes upon you when you discover a new truth in His Word? If you have, then you have experienced the fellowship of salvation.
—We choose to follow God, receive His Son as Lord and Savior this side. In eternity, we will see that it was all part of His designed plan.—
Which is what I am saying. God KNOWS, but we CHOOSE. He doesn’t predestine and choose for us, but he KNOWS.
“Which is what I am saying. God KNOWS, but we CHOOSE. He doesn’t predestine and choose for us, but he KNOWS.”
I think what we are dealing with is the imprecision of language. To say “HE doesn’t predestine...” when we read, “those He foreknew He did predestinate...” is to be inaccurate, imprecise, while to say he does not choose for us is correct. And, to say that He KNOWS and not understand that to mean He has therefore predestinated us (in Acts we read that Christ was “...delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God...” to be slain is, likewise to be inaccurate.
And then, concerning God choosing, what of this:
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Has God chosen them (and chosen FOR them) for wrath? The text indicates yes (when taken by itself). But in the context of all scripture, Christ died for these, as well. They have chosen to reject Him. God, knowing this from the beginning of beginnings chooses to use these for His purposes nonetheless.
In matters such as these, I often think of time (in the human sense)—a line segment having a starting point and going forward toward some end point (out into the future somewhere). At that end point, time will stop and be no more. But there will still exist eternity, and now the line segment will be compared against a line that stretches back into eternity past and out into eternity to come. I like to think of this as God-time. We, trapped in finite human-time, cannot comprehend such things. David said, “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it” (Psalm 139). How can we fully understand the purposes of God with finite minds trapped inside finite time and space (but one day we will know even as we are known).
So...God gives us His word, reveals His character and nature through them (and, most of all, through His Son). And, one day, we will see that He knew the end from the beginning (He was viewing our finite line segment of time from His infinite eternal line of time—ugh, sounding worse and worse here) and we will see that He chose us from before the foundations of the world! We will see that before we were formed in the womb, He knew us. He knew our down-sittings and our up-risings. He knew us from before that line segment! How can we say He did not choose us? How can we say that He did not predestinate us?
Reading and knowing these things, how can we not CHOOSE to follow Him!
I have never suggested we didn’t make our choices.
But, I’ve also stated that God knows the saved and the unsaved, and He has known since before creation.
The BIBLE says, “those He foreknew He PREDESTINED.”
Perhaps some don’t like the Bible word “predestined”, but it is in there, and we do have to deal with it. It is not “predestining” anything to sit around fat dumb and happy while letting events unfold. That’s called being pushed around by circumstances outside your control.
“Predestining”, on the other hand, would be intentionally creating a world in which every conceivable course of action were already known.
I see what you are saying. I feel that Paul is speaking collectively of the church and christians when He says that things are predestined. That Christ does have a purpose for his church. Which I agree. I do not feel that it refers to individual persons. And again. God knows what’s going to happen, but doesn’t choose for us (I know you aren’t stating that, but I wanted to state it again).
If God is all-knowing (and He is), then He can’t know a group (like the Church) and not know its members. If He doesn’t know its members, then He is not all-knowing.
He IS all-knowing, so He does know its individual members.
—If God is all-knowing (and He is), then He can’t know a group (like the Church) and not know its members. If He doesn’t know its members, then He is not all-knowing.
He IS all-knowing, so He does know its individual members.—
He is all knowing and knows who is going to choose to become members, but He doesn’t choose for them to be members. He has a chore and a idea of what He wants the general church to accomplish. That is what he is “predestined”. I am not saying He doesn’t know who will be in His church. I am saying he hasn’t predestined specific people to be in it.
The following 2 verses says He does predestine individuals. Groups aren’t called and justified, individuals are. And, it is definitely individuals who are adopted.
Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Romans 8:30 And THOSE he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined US to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
THOSE and US are both general terms. If speaking individually, it would “each of us”. Those is used to describe a group. Those chairs, those football players. Not those football player.
Sorry, Justice, but God doesn’t justify and adopt groups. He justifies and adopts individuals.
Would you tell a group that they’re saved because they’re Floridians? Presbyterians? Baptists? etc.?
—Would you tell a group that they’re saved because they’re Floridians? Presbyterians? Baptists? etc.?—
No, but He refers to His Church specifically throughout the Bible. He has a plan for His Church. And He has made that plan known and predestined it. Who makes up that Church is known by Christ, but not predestined and not chosen. People in the world choose whehter to be apart of that Church that Christ has predestined for great things.
Like a train. It’s predestined to go to a location. But it’s the individual that decides to get on AND stay on the whole ride. Thus is the church. It’s predestined to do great things, reach people, etc. But it’s up to individuals to get in and stay in. God knows who will, but doesn’t choose it for us.
The Church is the redeemed ones. Do you believe that joining a church saves you?
—The Church is the redeemed ones. Do you believe that joining a church saves you?—
Nope. Not even close. Paul was talking to the original church. The group of redeemed people. Saying that their collective, being the church of Christ, is predestined to do great things. Not each individual, the church as a group.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved .
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
So, you are saying that ALL in that paragraph is to groups and not to individuals? Since Paul addresses the letter to "the saints" that isn't likely since each of the recipients is a "saint".
Now, if every use of a plural pronoun means it is applied only to a group and not to an individual, then that means that verse 7 should shake you, "7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,", applies to the group and not to individuals.
For that would mean that YOUR redemption and YOUR forgiveness do not apply to you, but to some kind of group consciousness. The group is redeemed, but not the individuals.
Is that what you believe?
2 Thessalonians 2:13 [Stand Firm] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
The above underline is an example that when addressing a plurality that the individuals are the focus.
Quick question. Why does this matter? I don’t believe in the Elect and predestination. You do. We are aligned on basically everything except that. To go back to the analogy of the train.
I believe that the train (church) is predestined to achieve something and go somewhere. I believe we personally have a choice to get on board and to stay on board. I believe we can get off the train as well.
You believe that each person is that train and that it’s destined to go somewhere. Correct?
Because you joined a sideline discussion of predestination at post #90 is the reason we began discussing it.
If you mean, "Why is this important to me?", then:
1. It's a positive thing for bible believers to sharpen their bible understanding with each other. (as iron sharpens iron...)
2. It's good to have an accurate understanding of the Bible.
3. It's good to have a correct view of God.
Sideline discussion? This is a public forum. If you don’t want people to interrupt or throw their 2 cents in, mail eachother.
I agree with all your points. I just disagree with the elect and predestination idea.
By sideline discussion, I meant that it wasn’t specific to the topic of the thread. There are all kinds of sideline discussions on FR every day and just about every thread. I have no problem with them. I was pointing out that you joined the predestination sideline discussion at #90.
I know you disagree ..... now... :>)
Haha. Have a good day.
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