Rome's New and Novel Concept of Tradition Living Tradition (Viva Voce - Whatever We Say)

Monergism.com ^ | 12/17/2012 | William Webster

[RnMomof7]

Call me Cynical, Bear, but the Scriptural references to "Babylon" clearly describe Rome rather than to any other city of that age: It is the city ruling over the kings of the earth (Rev. Rev. 17:18);
It is descibed as sitting on seven mountains as does Rome (Rev. 17:9);
It is described as the center of the world’s merchandise (Rev. Rev. 18:2,
Rev. 19:2); It is described as the persecutor of the saints (Rev. Rev. 17:6).

And today Babylon is where?? Iraq, yes it still exists..and as we march forward to the end times we see a return of the evil of babylon ..false gods and the killing of Christians

So the use of prophecy to affirm Peters location is shaky at best

What we can see is that Paul never speaks of Peter in Rome..To whom does he refer the church ?

Rom 16:3 ¶ Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

We also know that Paul said he would never build on anothers foundation..

We also know that Peter was the apostle sent to the jews, not the gentiles

..The catholic encyclopedia says this..."we possess no precise information regarding the details of his Roman sojourn "(Kirsch J

Most of what Rome teaches today as "accurate" history was written over 100 years after peter died..

There is actually no record of a bishop in Rome for 200 years

[JustSayNoToNannies]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-lightfoot.html

'The tone of authority with which the letter speaks is noteworthy, especially in the later part (56, 58, etc.): "But if certain persons should be disobedient unto the words spoken by Him through us let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger; but we shall be guiltless of this sin" (59). "It may, perhaps, seem strange", writes [distinguished Anglican scholar] Bishop [J.B.] Lightfoot, "to describe this noble remonstrance as the first step towards papal domination. And yet undoubtedly this is the case." (I, 70.)' - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

[Elsie]

a Syriac surname given by Christ to Simon (John 1:42), meaning "rock."

I don't see that is was 'given' at all; but merely proclaiming what will be.

[Elsie]

I guess you’ve run out of anything to contribute.

Too bad.

[Natural Law]

"We also know....."

Actually, you surmise and accept, but you do not know.

I am under no misconception that you will accept as fact those historical anecdotes that agree with your agenda and reject those that do not because I am equally certain the truth is of secondary importance. Those seeking the truth will not be satisfied by what is posted here, there are ample sources to be had without the benefit of an anti-Catholic filter. Further, I do not post here to change your mind or heart, only the Holy Spirit can do that.. My purpose is to ensure that the truth is equally presented for the honestly curious so they know that there is a dispute.

Peace be to you.

[Elsie]

He DIED there?

That’s IT?

What did he DO there?

[Elsie]

"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man.

Be sure that this is the reason!

[RnMomof7]

A fine attempt to change subjects, but a failed attempt nonetheless. I made a point regarding the stupid assertion that Peter was never in Rome, something not addressed by the comment to which I reply. If anyone is attacking the messenger it's the person who pretends that the messenger is addressing a point they in fact were not addressing. LOL, LoL, LOl, lOL, lol, ha ha, and so on

Actually I answer that here ..ha ha ha (just kidding)

link

[Elsie]

Babylon was still a city when Peter was preaching and writing from there.

 

 

Oh???

 

 

---

 

 

Hellenistic period

In 331 BC, Darius III was defeated by the forces of the Ancient Macedonian Greek ruler Alexander the Great at the Battle of Gaugamela, and in October, Babylon fell to the young conqueror. A native account of this invasion notes a ruling by Alexander not to enter the homes of its inhabitants.^[20]

Under Alexander, Babylon again flourished as a centre of learning and commerce. But following Alexander's death in 323 BC in the palace of Nebuchadnezzar, his empire was divided amongst his generals, and decades of fighting soon began, with Babylon once again caught in the middle.

The constant turmoil virtually emptied the city of Babylon. A tablet dated 275 BC states that the inhabitants of Babylon were transported to Seleucia, where a palace was built, as well as a temple given the ancient name of Esagila. With this deportation, the history of Babylon comes practically to an end, though more than a century later, it was found that sacrifices were still performed in its old sanctuary.^[21] By 141 BC, when the Parthian Empire took over the region, Babylon was in complete desolation and obscurity.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon

 

[Elsie]

Jeremiah 51:37
Babylon will become a heap of rubble, haunted by jackals. It will be an object of horror and contempt, without a single person living there.

[Elsie]

Although.....

---

Persian Empire period

Under the Parthian, and later, Sassanid Persians, Babylon (like Assyria) remained a province of the Persian Empire for nine centuries, until after 650 AD. It continued to have its own culture and people, who spoke varieties of Aramaic, and who continued to refer to their homeland as Babylon. Some examples of their cultural products are often found in the Babylonian Talmud, the Gnostic Mandaean religion, Eastern Rite Christianity and the religion of the prophet Mani. Christianity came to Mesopotamia in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, and Babylon was the seat of a Bishop of the Church of the East until well after the Arab/Islamic conquest.

[Elsie]

You beat me to it! ;^)

[CTrent1564]

Elsie:

Assuming he is St. Peter, his dieing there was where he was Martyred and as a constant saying in the early Church, the bloods of martyrs are the seeds of faith. He built up the Church and strengthed the Roman Church in the times of persecution, as did St. Paul.

There is a constant 2nd century testimony that ST. Mark’s Gospel, Mark being indentified by St. Peter in the First Epistle of Peter in Chapter 5, was the scribe/co-worker of St. Peter and that Mark’s Gospel is St. Peter’s preaching to the Church of Rome. St. Papias, writing around 120, contemporay of St. Polycarp, who was a pupil of St. John th Apostle, states that Mark heard Peter’s preaching and some time later, recorded it accurately in his Gospel.

The point has been debated over and over again, but 1 Peter 5:13-14 is a strong indication that Mark [Marcus probably in Roman-Latin] was someone who was more of Hellenistic Jew, i.e. very conversant in Greek, perhaps Latin. That Mark was in Rome there is no doubt as St. Paul states that in His Letter to the Colossians. It is also clear that Mark was close to St. Peter as well [cf. First Letter of St. Peter].

The 2nd Century testimony of St. Papias is where we get the statement that St. Mark wrote his Gospel based on St. Peter’s preaching [circa 120AD]. Later 2nd century writings from St. Clement of Alexandria, which is where St. Mark ended his life, and it was St. Clement of Alexandria who wrote that Mark wrote his Gospel, not in the East [i.e. Alexandria, for example] but while he was in Rome with St. Peter.

So I am not sure what you are asking as your question is cryptic but there is my answer.

Cheers

[Elsie]

Can't we all just get along?

[Elsie]

Side A: “You ain’t doin’ it right!”
Side B: “You are doin’ WAY more than you need to!”

It is now time for BOTH sides to declare victory and leave the field.

[RnMomof7]

The early church did not interpret that the way Rome's new voice does

Augustine

Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. Sermons, Volume III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327.

..ORIGEN'S Commentary (A.D. 186-253),

"If we also say the same as Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God', not by the instruction of flesh and blood, but by the illumination of the heavenly Father in our hearts, we ourselves become the same thing as Peter.

There was NO indication in scripture that peter was ever views as a pope, or that the "bishop of Rome had any church primacy, there is no evidence in scripture that Peter was ever in Rome..

1Cor. 3:11 it "OTHER foundation can no man lay than that IS LAID, which is JESUS CHRIST".

[RnMomof7]

Actually, you surmise and accept, but you do not know.

I know Catholics do not KNOW simple scriptural truths

I wrote

What we can see is that Paul never speaks of Peter in Rome..To whom does he refer the church ?
Rom 16:3 ¶ Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

This self evident to anyone that reads Romans

If indeed Peter was in Rome, Paul certainly would have greeted him and referred converts to him ...but this never happens

His salutation was a general one to the church at Rome

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 16:1 ¶ I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Rom 16:3 ¶ Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Rom 16:8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
Rom 16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
Rom 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' [household].
Rom 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the [household] of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
Rom 16:12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
Rom 16:14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.

Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Not one word to Peter

We also know that Peter was the apostle sent to the jews, not the gentiles

Gal. 2:7, "But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised."

We can see that Peter is the apostle to Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

The Jews were allowed to return to Rome five years later, at the beginning of Emperor Nero’s reign in 54 AD. but they were now dispersed and did not return in great numbers right away

We also know that Paul said he would never build on anothers foundation..

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

[CynicalBear]

Well now! I may have to do some additional study. You are correct at least to a point. Babylon as a city had been destroyed by that time but there seems to be some very strong debate that the Babylon Peter refers to was actually Jerusalem which would make sense because he was the apostle to the Jews.

If, on the other hand, it was indeed Rome it would only reinforce the contention that the RCC represents the “whore” of Revelation. How interesting! Certainly more study on my part will be undertaken. Of course that would only strengthen my resolve to never ever align myself with that organization.

[RnMomof7]

1Clem 57:1 Ye therefore that laid the foundation of the sedition, submit yourselves unto the presbyters and receive chastisement unto repentance, bending the knees of your heart.

The greek presbyters translates not priet or pope..but elder

In Luke’s day, local church leaders could be called either elders or overseers, without a clear distinction between the terms” (Sullivan F.A. From Apostles to Bishops: the development of the episcopacy in the early church. F.A. Sullivan Newman Press, Mahwah (NJ), 2001, p. 65)

God ordained that the NT church have Elders ( overseers.)and deacons ..never priests or popes

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

[CynicalBear]

>> it is there that we believe we encounter the divine.<<

My sincerest sympathies go out to you. I encounter the divine on a daily basis wherever I am.

>> you can see what place Mary occupies in the public worship.<<

I’ll post this one more time. I think by the Pope’s pray we can see what status Mary has in the worship of the Catholic Church.

Let’s take the prayer of Prayer of Pope Pius XII. [http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm]

I’ll use just the bolded excerpts from the prayer.

we cast ourselves into your arms

1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (When did we need to replace God with Mary?)

confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (once again Catholics replacing Christ with Mary)

O crystal fountain of faith

Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. or "a measure of faith." (but Mary is the “fountain of faith” for Catholics)

Lily of all holiness

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (for Catholics however, “all holiness” is given to Mary)

Conqueress of evil and death

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (but Catholics claim it was Mary who conquered death)

Convert the wicked

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Catholics have even replaced the Holy Spirit with Mary)