On the three person Trinity at Christmastime [New Church, Open]

Fri Dec 14, 2012 | Self

[DaveMSmith]

I'd like to pose a question to the defenders of the three 'person' Trinity:

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" 35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Now, if the Holy Spirit were a person, would this Scripture not indicate He is Jesus' Father, not Jehovah?

[DaveMSmith]

Swedenborg wrote all of his theological works in Latin yet was unfamiliar with your definition, apparently.

[Cronos]

Nope, I’m giving you a fact.

[Cronos]

Yes, he was mistaken and it’s not my definition, but the correct definition

[Cronos]

you and Swedenborgian's formula of denying the trinity fails when it comes to John 15:26 “But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.”

Unless these are 3 distinct there can be no sending etc. -- so as Jesus Christ IS God and the Holy Spirit IS God

[DaveMSmith]

Ok, can you cite an on-line reference for your definition of persona? I can't seem to find anything.

You see, the very word doesn't exist in Scripture and neither does your definition seem to exist, so myriads of people are being deceived...

[DaveMSmith]

"[...}Hence it is that the "Holy Spirit" is the holy which proceeds from the Lord; for the Spirit itself does not proceed, but the holy which the Spirit speaks, as everyone can understand who considers the matter. That the Holy Spirit, which is also called the "Paraclete," is the Divine truth proceeding from the Lord's Divine Human, and that the holy is predicated of the Divine truth, is evident from the Lord's words in John: I will ask the Father that He shall give you another Paraclete, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him. The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and shall remind you of all things which I have said unto you (John 14:16-17, 26). When the Paraclete is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who goeth out from the Father, He shall testify of Me (John 15:26). When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He shall lead you into all truth; He shall not speak from Himself, but what things soever He shall hear, He shall speak. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall declare it unto you. All things whatsoever the Father hath are Mine; therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall declare it unto you (John 16:13-15). If these passages are collated with many others, it can be understood that the Holy Spirit is the holy which proceeds from the Lord's Divine Human; for the Lord says, "Whom the Father shall send in My name;" also, "Whom I will send unto you from the Father;" and further, "He shall take of Mine and declare it unto you; all things that the Father hath are Mine, therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall declare it unto you." It is also evident that the holy is predicated of truth, for the Paraclete is called the "Spirit of truth." ~ Secrets of Heaven 6788

Some of my faith have come to the conclusion that Swedenborg was the Paraclete (he never says that of himself).

[Cronos]

Some of my faith have come to the conclusion that Swedenborg was the Paraclete (he never says that of himself).

Ok, that would make sense to them in their interpretation. Each has his own new interpretation since the 1500s...

[DaveMSmith]

Well, we do have the Word now, thanks to the Reformation and do have the spiritual freedom to read it and understand it with sound Doctrine. No one is asking anyone to believe anything in my faith -- you'll have to draw your own conclusions. We don't have mysteries - everything is clearly laid out and we don't expect anyone to believe what they don't understand.

For myself, I really didn't think arguing the Trinity was worth it until I realized that you really can't get to heaven believing God is three. The Lord's prayer doesn't teach us to pray this way...why? so the heretic Arius could be appeased?

[Cronos]

DaveMSmith :Well, we do have the Word now, thanks to the Reformation and do have the spiritual freedom to read it and understand it with sound Doctrine

Yes, that's why folks like you would reject the Trinity and as you said have come to the conclusion that Swedenborg was the Paraclete

Lots of new interpretations each day

[Cronos]

As you pointed out, the Mormons shot out from Swedenborgians, right?

[metmom]

ampu, looks like another case for another cultic spam image.

[DaveMSmith]

I said some have come to that conclusion. Some find it no more than a Bible Study aid and most are in between I suppose.

By your response and your ping list, it would seem you long for the days of the infallible pope dictating the meaning of Scripture and issuing papal bulls that are held up higher than the Word itself. God didn't buy that.

[DaveMSmith]

And, for the record, I do not reject the Trinity. I reject the trinity of personS - which you cannot even provide a sound definition of. Personas. I reject your definition.

Actor or mask is accurate - it's as phony as a 3 dollar bill.

[Cronos]

I do not reject the Trinity. I reject the trinity of

So how do you define the Trinity?

[DaveMSmith]

Here are the particulars of faith, which I stated the first, above:

[2] For our part, the specifics of faith are these: (1) There is one God, the divine Trinity exists within him, and he is the Lord God the Savior Jesus Christ. (2) Believing in him is a faith that saves. (3) We must not do things that are evil - they belong to the Devil and come from the Devil. (4) We must do things that are good - they belong to God and come from God. (5) We must do these things as if we ourselves were doing them, but we must believe that they come from the Lord working with us and through us. The first two points have to do with faith, the second two have to do with goodwill; and the fifth has to do with the partnership between goodwill and faith, the partnership between the Lord and us. ~ True Christianity 3

[Cronos]

you got the definition above in the Athanasian creed — here’s a simpler one for you “it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds. While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.”

[Cronos]

As the Athanasian creed states

As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding.

[DaveMSmith]

As we spoke before, the Apostle’s creed I accept. We are in His image - my soul, will and human do not operate ‘distinctly’. Same with the Godhead.

[Cronos]

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God. Each of these

Now, what is your definition?

[Cronos]

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God. Each of these is distinct

Now, what is your definition?