On the three person Trinity at Christmastime [New Church, Open]

Fri Dec 14, 2012 | Self

[DaveMSmith]

I'd like to pose a question to the defenders of the three 'person' Trinity:

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" 35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Now, if the Holy Spirit were a person, would this Scripture not indicate He is Jesus' Father, not Jehovah?

[D-fendr]

I believe God is one, in whom is the Divine Trinity, and He is the Lord God the Savior Jesus Christ.

This is a bit different formulation, but I don't see how it removes your objections, one/trinity - three/one wise.

With a little change, it's pretty close to Orthodox Christian belief:

"I believe the Godhead is one, in whom is the Divine Trinity, comprised of God the Father, the Lord God the Savior Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

[Arthur McGowan]

Read this book before discussing the Trinity further:

http://tinyurl.com/mindofthemaker

[Arthur McGowan]

It’s odd that those who reject what ecumenical councils of the Church have defined concerning the Trinity do so on the supposed basis of Scripture, which we know to be the inspired, inerrant word of God only because ecumenical councils have defined it as such.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

i blame Constantine.

[Lee N. Field]

i blame Constantine.

Constantine the Evil, who as Pope forced the doctrine of the Trinity on the pure worship of Ebionite Yahshua-anity, moved the day of worship to Sunday, purged the bible of the gospels of Peter, Paul and Mary, etc., et wacky cetera.

That Constantine?

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

That Constantine?

the one and only!!

[ravenwolf]

I don,t know if the three would be considered persons or not, but if God is the father and Jesus is the son, that makes two in any kind of math, they have the same mind so that makes them one.

Jesus was already gone on the day of Pentecost so the Holy spirit is the third member of the God head, God the father, Jesus the son, and the holy spirit, and these three are one.

But if there were not three why would it say these three are one?

[ravenwolf]

I believe Jesus also calls them hirelings, ( paid preachers )

[ravenwolf]

Read this book before discussing the Trinity further:

---

Yeah, what does the people who wrote the Bible know any way?

[Cronos]

Now, if the Holy Spirit were a person, would this Scripture not indicate He is Jesus' Father, not Jehovah?

That's a wrong definition of the term person in context of the Trinity -- this is persona -- of one substance yet separate.

[Cronos]

ha ha — say, note that xeniaST, and all the rest of the “Pope constantine” crowd have been quiet for the past month. Do you think they’re on some plateau chanting mantras and waiting for 21.Dec for the mothership to come and take them away?

[Uri’el-2012]

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19 KJV

Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” [[Matt. xxviii. 19.]]

From Proof of the Gospel (the Demonstratio) by Eusebius.

Eusebius (265-339 CE) Bishop of Caesarea around 314 CE

Book III, Chapter 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/eusebius_de_05_book3.htm

also
(2) Book III, Chapter 6, 132 (a), p. 152
(3) Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159
(4) Book IX, Chapter 11, 445 (c), p. 175
(5) Book I, Chapter 3, 6 (a), p. 20
(6) Book I, Chapter 5, 9 (a), p. 24

In ~311 CE Eusebius (265-339) Bishop of Caesarea
In his _Proof of the Gospels_
in Book three chapter seven states

Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” [[Matt. xxviii. 19.]]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/eusebius_de_05_book3.htm

Apparently Matthew 28:19 was changed
after Eusebius wrote his Proof of the Gospel.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[DaveMSmith]

That it is the Lord only who is meant by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19 is evident from what there precedes and what follows. In the preceding verse the Lord says, "All power is given unto Me in heaven and on earth," and in the following verse He says, "Lo, I am with you all the days, even to the consummation of the age;" thus He speaks of Himself only, so that He spoke in that manner [about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] to make His disciples aware that there is a trinity in Him. Doctrine of the Lord 46:6 ~ Swedenborg

[DaveMSmith]

How about the Athanasian Creed?

[DaveMSmith]

And I did a search of ‘persona’ in the Latin Vulgate Bible - that word does not appear in Matt 28:19 or in any Trinity related Scripture.

[Salvation]

O WISDOM
December 17

Symbols: All-Seeing Eye and the Lamp

Come, and teach us the way of prudence.

O Wisdom, who came from the mouth of the Most High, reaching from end to end and ordering all things mightily and sweetly, Come, and teach us the way of prudence.

O Sapientia, quae ex ore Altissimi prodiisti, attingens a fine usque ad finem fortiter, suaviterque disponens omnia: veni ad docendum nos viam prudentiae.

The "all-seeing eye" represents the all-knowing and ever-present God. During the late Renaissance, the eye was pictured in a triangle with rays of light to represent the infinite holiness of the Trinity. The lamp is a symbol of wisdom taken from the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25.

Recommended Readings: Proverbs 8:1-12

[Cronos]

Neither does the word Swedenborg, however the fact that a word does not exist in the Bible does not mean the concept is not there — and the Bible clearly shows at Jesus’ baptism that there is a separate Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet we know that each is God and that God is one. Ergo the Trinity exists, and the Swedenborgian concept is incorrect

[Cronos]

The Athanasian creed in Latin:

1. Quicunque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem:
2. Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternam peribit.
3. Fides autem catholica haec est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur.
4. Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam seperantes.
5. Alia est enim persona Patris alia Filii, alia Spiritus Sancti:
6. Sed Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas, aequalis gloria, coeterna maiestas.
7. Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
8. Increatus Pater, increatus Filius, increatus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
9. Immensus Pater, immensus Filius, immensus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
10. Aeternus Pater, aeternus Filius, aeternus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
11. Et tamen non tres aeterni, sed unus aeternus.
12. Sicut non tres increati, nec tres immensi, sed unus increatus, et unus immensus.
13. Similiter omnipotens Pater, omnipotens Filius, omnipotens [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
14. Et tamen non tres omnipotentes, sed unus omnipotens.
15. Ita Deus Pater, Deus Filius, Deus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
16. Et tamen non tres dii, sed unus est Deus.
17. Ita Dominus Pater, Dominus Filius, Dominus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
18. Et tamen non tres Domini, sed unus [est] Dominus.
19. Quia, sicut singillatim unamquamque personam Deum ac Dominum confiteri christiana veritate compelimur:
20. Ita tres Deos aut [tres] Dominos dicere catholica religione prohibemur.
21. Pater a nullo est factus: nec creatus, nec genitus.
22. Filius a Patre solo est: non factus, nec creatus, sed genitus.
23. Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.
24. Unus ergo Pater, non tres Patres: unus Filius, non tres Filii: unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres Spiritus Sancti.
25. Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius aut posterius, nihil maius aut minus:
26. Sed totae tres personae coaeternae sibi sunt et coaequales.
27. Ita, ut per omnia, sicut iam supra dictum est, et unitas in Trinitate, et Trinitas in unitate veneranda sit.
28. Qui vult ergo salvus esse, ita de Trinitate sentiat.

29. Sed necessarium est ad aeternam salutem, ut incarnationem quoque Domini nostri Iesu Christi fideliter credat.
30. Est ergo fides recta ut credamus et confiteamur, quia Dominus noster Iesus Christus, Dei Filius, Deus [pariter] et homo est.
31. Deus [est] ex substantia Patris ante saecula genitus: et homo est ex substantia matris in saeculo natus.
32. Perfectus Deus, perfectus homo: ex anima rationali et humana carne subsistens.
33. Aequalis Patri secundum divinitatem: minor Patre secundum humanitatem.
34. Qui licet Deus sit et homo, non duo tamen, sed unus est Christus.
35. Unus autem non conversione divinitatis in carnem, sed assumptione humanitatis in Deum.
36. Unus omnino, non confusione substantiae, sed unitate personae.
37. Nam sicut anima rationalis et caro unus est homo: ita Deus et homo unus est Christus.
38. Qui passus est pro salute nostra: descendit ad inferos: tertia die resurrexit a mortuis.
39. Ascendit ad [in] caelos, sedet ad dexteram [Dei] Patris [omnipotentis].
40. Inde venturus [est] judicare vivos et mortuos.
41. Ad cujus adventum omnes homines resurgere habent cum corporibus suis;
42. Et reddituri sunt de factis propriis rationem.
43. Et qui bona egerunt, ibunt in vitam aeternam: qui vero mala, in ignem aeternum.
44. Haec est fides catholica, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit.

The problem is that the English language is limited -- and incorrectly translates the latin term "persona" as just person wherein we think of an utterly separate individual not sharing a substance with another, not even with a twin

The fact that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are distinct is seen in John 14:12,28 and John 16:10 and in John 14:16-17

[Cronos]

The Athanasian creed in Latin:

1. Quicunque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem:
2. Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternam peribit.
3. Fides autem catholica haec est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur.
4. Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam seperantes.
5. Alia est enim persona Patris alia Filii, alia Spiritus Sancti:
6. Sed Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas, aequalis gloria, coeterna maiestas.
7. Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
8. Increatus Pater, increatus Filius, increatus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
9. Immensus Pater, immensus Filius, immensus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
10. Aeternus Pater, aeternus Filius, aeternus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
11. Et tamen non tres aeterni, sed unus aeternus.
12. Sicut non tres increati, nec tres immensi, sed unus increatus, et unus immensus.
13. Similiter omnipotens Pater, omnipotens Filius, omnipotens [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
14. Et tamen non tres omnipotentes, sed unus omnipotens.
15. Ita Deus Pater, Deus Filius, Deus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
16. Et tamen non tres dii, sed unus est Deus.
17. Ita Dominus Pater, Dominus Filius, Dominus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
18. Et tamen non tres Domini, sed unus [est] Dominus.
19. Quia, sicut singillatim unamquamque personam Deum ac Dominum confiteri christiana veritate compelimur:
20. Ita tres Deos aut [tres] Dominos dicere catholica religione prohibemur.
21. Pater a nullo est factus: nec creatus, nec genitus.
22. Filius a Patre solo est: non factus, nec creatus, sed genitus.
23. Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.
24. Unus ergo Pater, non tres Patres: unus Filius, non tres Filii: unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres Spiritus Sancti.
25. Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius aut posterius, nihil maius aut minus:
26. Sed totae tres personae coaeternae sibi sunt et coaequales.
27. Ita, ut per omnia, sicut iam supra dictum est, et unitas in Trinitate, et Trinitas in unitate veneranda sit.
28. Qui vult ergo salvus esse, ita de Trinitate sentiat.

29. Sed necessarium est ad aeternam salutem, ut incarnationem quoque Domini nostri Iesu Christi fideliter credat.
30. Est ergo fides recta ut credamus et confiteamur, quia Dominus noster Iesus Christus, Dei Filius, Deus [pariter] et homo est.
31. Deus [est] ex substantia Patris ante saecula genitus: et homo est ex substantia matris in saeculo natus.
32. Perfectus Deus, perfectus homo: ex anima rationali et humana carne subsistens.
33. Aequalis Patri secundum divinitatem: minor Patre secundum humanitatem.
34. Qui licet Deus sit et homo, non duo tamen, sed unus est Christus.
35. Unus autem non conversione divinitatis in carnem, sed assumptione humanitatis in Deum.
36. Unus omnino, non confusione substantiae, sed unitate personae.
37. Nam sicut anima rationalis et caro unus est homo: ita Deus et homo unus est Christus.
38. Qui passus est pro salute nostra: descendit ad inferos: tertia die resurrexit a mortuis.
39. Ascendit ad [in] caelos, sedet ad dexteram [Dei] Patris [omnipotentis].
40. Inde venturus [est] judicare vivos et mortuos.
41. Ad cujus adventum omnes homines resurgere habent cum corporibus suis;
42. Et reddituri sunt de factis propriis rationem.
43. Et qui bona egerunt, ibunt in vitam aeternam: qui vero mala, in ignem aeternum.
44. Haec est fides catholica, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit.

The problem is that the English language is limited -- and incorrectly translates the latin term "persona" as just person wherein we think of an utterly separate individual not sharing a substance with another, not even with a twin

The fact that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are distinct is seen in John 14:12,28 and John 16:10 and in John 14:16-17

[DaveMSmith]

I've looked at Latin dictionaries online and the definition of persona doesn't seem to exist (they refer to actor, mask) - since Latin is a dead language, this seems odd.

Blaming English common usage for a non-existent definition?