Posted on 12/10/2012 9:27:44 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
...gambling, rock music, etc, etc?
Now, this thread isn't about debating what is sin and what isn't or what constitutes sin or doesn't. Please don't hijack this thread over the issues that I listed. Thank you.
This thread is about our changing culture - and let's face it, more and more denominations/churches are ever so slowly moving towards tolerance and/or acceptance of homosexual marriage. The rest in the list (following gay marriage) that I included in the thread were put there to show that if you look back far enough at various denomination's church bylaws some churches were once against this or that - but no longer are. Just like they once were adamantly against homosexuality/homosexual marriage, but are slowly drifting away from that.
Which makes me wonder and posit the following question:
Those (the various ministers who were the crafters of church bylaws and voted on them) believed that they were following God's will in the crafting of their church/denomination bylaws. And they believed that they had it right (or scripturally correct) be it in the early 1800's, early 1850's, late 1800's, early 1900's mid 1900's, etc.
So, if a church/denomination "took a stand" against drinking and smoking or gambling, etc, etc in the 1800's in its bylaws but now has since changed the bylaws on these, did those back in the 1800's really hear from God when they crafted those bylaws? If not, then how can those today who change the church bylaws on these things be certain that they aren't making a mistake by changing the church/denomination's bylaws as they are just as fallible as those who lived back then?
Which leads to churches and the slow change in many denominations taking place over gay marriage....
Where are we as a society headed? What bylaw(s) is/are absolutely correct and never need to be changed?
Just thought you ought to know.
The fact that this is rarely preached, is guilt on the heads of the preachers for letting people continue in ignorance. Since knowledge is involved, the priests and bishops (who know, and who are solemnly obliged to teach) are more to blame than the pewsitters. But the RCIA program in my parish --- like the Catechism itself --- teaches both of these obligations, and seriously.
I agree with you in essence, but what really is the "Communion fast" since you can go right up with a breakfast burrito on your breath and particles on your tongue and get Communion? Where's the fast? And where do lay people and recipients get off handling the Host?
And when did Sunday become Saturday afternoon so the church goers could sleep in or get their t-time? I thought that the Sabbath in the Catholic Church and most of the Christian world was on Sunday.
All grape starts fermenting immediately, from the sugars in the juice and the yeast on the skins. This is an aspect of its God-given nature, invariable and incontestable. The only way to stop that is either freezing or pasteurization, neither of which existed in Biblical times.
Moderate wine drinking is also healthful, as we have known for thousands of years (as Paul said to Timothy!) and as we can now document. In 1992 Harvard researchers confirmed moderate alcohol consumption as one of the "eight proven ways to reduce coronary heart disease risk." Scientists believe the artery-relaxing benefit of the alcohol itself is partly responsible for this protective effect. Plus antioxidants, called flavonoids, reduce the risk of coronary heart disease.
However in a 1998 study, Japanese researchers found that while non-alcoholic grape juice still had antioxidative benefits, it did not significantly lower LDL cholesterol levels compared to alcohol-containing red wine.
Thanks be to God.
"He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for man to cultivate-
bringing forth food from the earth:
wine that gladdens the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine,
and bread that sustains his heart."
Psalm 104
Music by its self is not capable of being evil. it is the lyrics that go with it that is evil.
Getting hooked on gambling, or anything else, the first time it is done is based upon decisions that are made to give in to it. being hooked on heroin is a physical addition that is very difficult to overcome but people do overcome based upon decisions that thye make. Personally, I do not buy that assertion that a person can be hooked on something like gambling the first time they try it.
The issue that you were getting at is that churches are more intersted in filling the pews and the resulting cash flow than saving sould; including their own. I believe that it is a good indication that the minister/pastor does not really believe what they are selling, like priest that mollest little boys.
As for Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist proliferating beyond all sense and decorum, I agree with you. As long as there are priests and deacons, they should be out there doing their Sacramental duty. I myself have more than once declined to volunteer as an EM because I think it's even more inappropriate for females to step in and do a role of the ordained. Not because females aren't devout and holy, but because we should not be pushing the edges of ordained ministry.
Nix to "altar girls" too. (There! I said it!)
As for Saturday evening becoming part of Sunday, that's actually more legit. The Church has from ancient days celebrated Vigils, precisely because the earliest (Jewish and Christian) practices regarded the day as being from sundown to sundown.
The fact that it's convenient for some, shouldn't be an argument against it.
I'm in our parish's newly-organized Schola Cantorum, doing the singing for the Latin Mass. So if you want to do your part to bring back the good old ways and the good old days, Come Aww-w-n-n-n- Down, buddy! VENITE ADOREMUS!
I was a Latin language altar boy in the mid-50s . . . we had 4 positions to practice for: Paten [or diskos] (which was the most prestigious); Book (had to carry the heavy book and bookstand from one side of the priest to the other), Bells (got to ring the bells during certain times of the Mass), and Dead End (nothing to do but kneel and stand up . . . only for the newbies).
Agree 100% with females behind the altar during Mass . . . no reason for them . . . but times have changed.
The priest, whose index finger tip and thumb tip were sacred during the Mass and up to then being washed after Communion, were the only part of the body of anyone in the church that could tough the Host. The index finger of the priest was touched to the tip of the thumb throughout that part of the Mass until they were washed by the altar boys over the chalice after Communion.
Brings back memories . . . good memories.
God is bringing back His Church. Oremus.
Where in scripture is the admonition against fermented wine?
As a practical matter, grape juice in a hot climate will not keep. Try it some time. The alcohol of the fermentation process is what causes it to keep.
Find a Bible and read the book of John. It will tell you everything that you need to know about Heaven and Hell.
You appear to define "intoxicated" as having ANY amount of alcohol in your system. As opposed to the standard understanding as "A state in which someone is incapable of normal speech, actions or thought due to the ingestion of excessive amounts of alcohol and/or drugs".
One or two beers over the course of an evening do not constitute intoxication.
Drunkard: One who is habitually drunk. Being habitually, or even frequently, drunk (where "drunk" is defined as having had so much alcohol that you are incapable of normal functioning or have impaired ability to reason) is generally a bad thing, for the reason that it prevents you from earning a living and functioning as a contributing member of society. Drunkards are a drain on their families and societies. A person having an occasional glass of wine with his meal is not.
The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word “wine” can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: De. 11:14; 2 Ch. 31:5; Ne. 13:15; Pr. 3:10; Is. 16:10; 65:8; 1 Ti. 5:23.
By the way, Prov. 31:6,7 give us the only legitimate use of alcoholic wine in Scripture. “Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.” This would be using it as an anesthetic; a painkiller.
My final words on this...I have avoided adding to this discussion, I see little to gain. “But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.” Titus 3:9
Where is it said in the Word that one must adopt a creed in order to follow Yeshua? No creed is necessary, ergo, no creed should be present.
So what’s stopping them from accepting one sans Romans 1?
Accepting one what? What are you going on about? A reprobate mind? What has stopped these others (including your own?) A creed is no defense. It is the Spirit who sanctions.
Nonsense. The congregationalists have no formal structure and they are on this list along with the UMC, Episcopalians, etc.
LOL! Of course they are, but they don't live long if they do not remain true. Have they failed? Yup. then they are gone... And another fires up down the road. Square one.
That almost never happens to a hierarchy.
It is the hierarchical churches that have a power structure - And that power structure invites petty tyrants and bureaucracy. Such things encourage calcification... status quo... That calcification acts as a bulwark against heresy to a point, but it is not entirely effective. And WHEN heresy IS accepted therein, it is impossible to remove.
If there is any Church which supported abolishment, it is most likely to accept homosexual "marriages" in the future.
Gambling -- the same
Rock music is not a matter of dogma. If rock music praises God, it's very good. if it praises the devil, it's not good. If it's something in between, it depends. it's not more evil or less.
So, if a church/denomination "took a stand" against drinking and smoking or gambling, etc it is more likely to now change with the wind to allow "gay marriages"
What are you talking about? Wine is fermented. Grape juice naturally gets formented and is "natural". I think it would be pretty hard to make grapejuice and maintain it in that state from the time of the harvest until passover. The juice of a grape will ferment. I don't speak Greek, but I was told that the original Greek texts say wine.
If I am not mistaken Jesus drank a glass of wine now and then (Matthew 11: 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions." )
Remember the passage about new wine in old wineskins? The reason is that you couldn't drink new wine, you had to age it. If you put it into old skins, the skins would deteriorate and break. YOu had to use new skin.
And remember how Paul told Timothy to use a little wine with his water for his stomach's sake? To us, it doesn't make sense, since alcohol causes ulcers. But Paul recognized that wine mixed with water helped prevent stomach problems (diarrhea and dystentary).
Wine wasn't just served at weddings (Last Supper, anyone?), it was served at every meal, in all Jewish homes. Because wine was naturally fermented back then, absent the addition of yeast and sugar, it wasn't quite as potent as wine that was created several hundred years later. But, it was still fermented and still plainly alcoholic.
For example, the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned the water into wine, happened near passover. In the spring. Grapes are harvested in fall.
With wine there is no grape juice and suddenly wine. There was no form of long term storage for grape juice, no preserving it. Grape juice in short order would spoil. So from the pressing of the grapes, the juice would IMMEDIATELY begin to be processed into wine. Fermentation is not simply leaving grape juice out for a long bit of time, that is spoilage. So making wine is a deliberate process.
Now as the Hebrew word Tirosh means new wine, new wine is wine that is not fully fermented. Drinking wine at this point can make one sick, if not dead. The alcohol has not killed all the bacteria at this point.
So the Oinos (gr) that Jesus made would have been Yayin and not Tirosh.
pro-alcohol?
No one is pro-alcohol. All we're saying is that the Bible condemns drunkenness, not drinking of wine itself.
It doesn't say ban drinking wine.
Still waiting for the passage that says not to touch alcohol.
And can you give us an objective definition of ‘heavy heart’ so someone who might think they have one but really doesn’t may not wind up in hell for having a drink?
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