Posted on 11/27/2012 4:05:51 PM PST by greyfoxx39
These are all Catholics orders of priests, nuns, monks. They are all Catholic. We all say the Apostles Creed the same way. We all pray the Rosary.
They are not denominations.....sorry that you were misinformed in this way.
the arguments between Jansenites and Jesuits are analogous to the arguments between various calculus mathematicians -- until finally the argument was closed with the ruling on one side
Yet neither side disputed that 2+2=4 while in contrast the non-Catholic groups do just that -- as I said above, the Lutherans hold to the True Presence in the Eucharist, Infant Baptism, the efficacy of Baptism, even to some extent to the Sacrament of Penance
Calvinists and Zwingli's crowd rejected the true Presence in the Eucharist and in various forms retained the others
Both these two, the first and second generations of Reformaters took their ideas of the great apostasy (if they had any) as being the late medieval period
The third generation of reformaters, the anabaptists (baptists came later arising out of the anabaptists in 1608) tossed aside much of the Lutheran beliefs and much of the Calvinist as well, disgruntling Luther, but not as much as the fourth generation -- the Unitarians who tossed away the entire Trinity! The anabaptists held the 'Grate apostasy' to the early medieval period
then the fifth generation I just put the Methodists who arose from Anglicanism, so a different diverging path
But the sixth generation of reformatters arose from the second and fourth generations with the radical reformation in the 1800s and the entire gamut of Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses and yes even the Mormons --> the Jehovah's W's split off from the Adventists who themselves had the strange beliefs and the Mormons seem to have just taken the Baptist belief of the "Grate Apostasy" which supposedly happened in teh 300s, the Mormons just took it back another 300 years to directly by the Apostles
This is analogous to people arguing about differentials and integrals and suddenly one guy says "hey, I disagree with the theory of 2+2=4"
People saw the error in this -- especially Luther, Calvin and Zwingli who attempted to stamp out the Anabaptists and unitarians by forming their own council -- the Marburg Colloquy in 1529 when they aimed to set the fundamentals of belief, not to be voted on or changed -- sound policy
it broke down though
And Luther published the book The Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ—Against the Fanatics where he pointed out that those who did not believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist were Whoever does not believe these words has fallen into a mind trick devised by the devil and has a perspective distorted by "colored glass". The word "is" means "is" in the literal way that one uses for common speaking at the dinner table. Christ distributes his body and blood in the sacrament in a way similar to how he distributes himself across the entire world.
This was the milder argument -- the stronger one was against Anabaptists who forbade infant baptism - this was according to Lutherans and Calvinists and other a way of condemning the child, hence their violent reaction against anabaptists
However, I deviate -- my main point was that the differences between various groups of calculcus mathematicians who agree on not only the fundamentals but higher arguments but don't agree on on esoteric point is quite different from folks who while arguing against a usage of a cosine argue that 2+2 = 7
it can confuse if one doesn’t actually read the details. I’m sure we’d get confused by the differences between Alliance of Baptists, American Baptist Association, American Baptist Churches USA, Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America ,Baptist Bible Fellowship International Baptist General Association of Virginia ,Baptist General Conference, Baptist General Convention of Texas Baptist Missionary Association of America ,Black Primitive Baptists Central Baptist Association Christian Baptist Church of God Church of Christ, Instrumental Conservative Baptist Association of America, Conservative Baptist Association of the Southeast ,Continental Baptist Churches Cooperative Baptist Fellowship District of Columbia Baptist Convention Evangelical Free Baptist Church Free Will Baptist Church Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship Fundamental Baptist Fellowship Association Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International General Association of Baptists General Association of General Baptists General Six-Principle Baptists Independent Baptist Independent Baptist Fellowship International Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America Institutional Missionary Baptist Conference of America Liberty Baptist Fellowship Missionary Baptists National Association of Free Will Baptists National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A. New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship Northern Baptist Convention Old Regular Baptists Old Time Missionary Baptist Original Free Will Baptist Convention Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church Primitive Baptists Primitive Baptist Conference of New Brunswick, Maine and Nova Scotia Primitive Baptist Universalist Progressive National Baptist Convention Reformed Baptists Separate Baptists Separate Baptists in Christ Seventh Day Baptists Silver Bluff Baptist Church Southern Baptist Convention Southwide Baptist Fellowship Sovereign Grace Baptists Spring Creek Church Triennial Convention Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists Union Baptists United American Free Will Baptist Church United American Free Will Baptist Conference, Westboro Baptists, Wisconsin Fellowship of Baptist Churches World Baptist Fellowship
Atually Ezra T Benson was initially congregationist I think
Err.. sorry, what are you talking about?
St. Augustine lived from 354 to 430 AD - this was 600 years before the schism and there was no differentiator Eastern Orthodox or Catholic.
Even the Coptic Church didn't have a schism until 450, which was after Augustine and Nestorius didn't propound his ideas until 435 --> so your statement is historically inaccurate
REally? how about the Oneness Pentecostals who insist that the Trinity is false concept and that talking in tongues is a must to show one is saved? That is muddying the water too, isn't it?
Also note Elsie -- as http://www.anabaptistchurch.org/DifferencesEvangeliicalsAnabaptists.htm points out: "First, an Anabaptist interpretation of Scripture is centered on the teachings of Christ and his call to discipleship. The rest of Scripture is then viewed through this lens and interpreted so as not to contradict the teachings of Christ, the head of the church. This produces different conclusions than when interpretation is centered on the writings of Paul as often seen in Evangelical teaching -- so the a baptists say that the Evangelical way is muddied
but this is a different, anabaptist way of looking at things
Also note Elsie the gift of God is simple --
| 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. |
and also in the commentaries on Christ's teachings:
This and this, not this or this.
There is no one such tradition
The terms "Evangelical" and "Protestant" can mean different things and apply to a number of sub-groups.
Some traditions like the Lutheran or Presbyterian have 400+ year tradition
Others like the various Baptists have 200+ year tradition
Others like the Christian Scientists etc. have 100+ year tradition
The various groups that are called Evangelicals are creating their own traditions and ways.
Cronos, please note the context in which this discussion arose: Terycarl constantly tries to claim there are 20,000 different Protestant denominations...The implication is that there are 20,000 different sects with 20,000 sets of core beliefs.
If you really sorted thru most of the hundreds of Protestant denominations, you'd find they pretty much agree on "core beliefs."
So I'm not saying that Catholic orders likewise have no core beliefs...what I am saying is that the distinctions there are not much different than the distinctions among Protestant denominations, most of whom differ more on church government than anything else.
Oh sure there are major distinctions in the two sacraments and on eschatology; but even then, they mostly fall into two to three camps on that.
So let's not remove all of this from its context...
Many regard 7th Day Adventism, because of its legalistic approach to the Sabbath Day, and because it teaches annihilism post-death...is a cult.
So not all "offshoots" = Protestantism...Some have left the fold.
Likewise, oneness Pentecostals teach the ancient heresy of modalism. So, now Protestants are held accountable for every heretic that arises in its midst?
Let's discuss Roman Catholic distinctions...shall we?
Some embrace liberation theology, others don't...especially those in Central/South America that do.
Some European Catholics go beyond veneration of Mary and borderline worship her. Others simply revere her and give her high respect.
Some Catholics, especially those more in history, have embraced icons and images and have gone beyond veneration; most Catholics these days don't.
Some Catholics ask saints to intercede for them; others don't.
Some Catholics make pilgrimages to where special appearances of Mary supposedly took place in history (Europe). Others don't.
Some Catholics practice birth control; others don't.
With the above, I'm not just talking about individual Catholics...I'm talking about where Catholic leaders either emphasize -- or de-emphasize -- all of the above according to the diocese they are in...according to the priests and bishops and others in authority...etc.
The church in Egypt, the Coptic Church, is more ancient than the Roman church and it has never been part of the Roman church. The Nestorian Church (the Eastern Church now found primarily in Syria and Jordan) has a history that is much older than the Roman church -- both of these are incorrect.
You conflate the Church of Alexandria with the Coptic Church and vice-versa.
Now the original Pentarchy of Churches -- the original 5 Churches were: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem
All are equally ancient (except for antioch and jerusalem of course) -- you cannot say the Church in alexandria is older than the one in rome or vice-versa
The Church in Jerusalem is of course the oldest by a few years
The Church in Antioch was perhaps older by a year or more or less the same time -- remember that the Apostles went to preach to Jewish communities and there were Jewish communities in Rome as well as in Antioch
The Nestorian Church -- btw, there is and was no "Nestorian Church" -- it's a misnomer. There is the Church of the East that split from the Antiochene See and was and is based in Ctesiphon in Mesopotamia, but that has the doctrines of Babai the Great, not Nestorius
In any case, they moved from the overall Catholic Church in 440 to 450 and that was exacerbated by the politics that they were Christians in the Persian Empire -- as an aside to give you some historical background, the Church had spread well in Persia during the times before Constantine. But when Theodosius declared Christianity as state religion, the Persians saw this as a danger signal -- a fourth column among them, so started the persecutions
But, with this "Nestorius", the Persians saw a chance to split their Christians away from the Roman Christians
possibly the Church of the East saw this as a way to live in peace
yet note that the beliefs in the Eucharist etc. remain even in the Church of the East
Again, the JWs are NOT protestants. They don't think so; we don't think so. We're in agreement.
So why is every Tom, Dick & Harry cult somehow "Protestant" in your mind?
The Sassanid Shahenshah took the theological discussion as a chance to politically divide the Church. Yet the beliefs as propounded by Babai the Great are Chalcedonic
They are distinct and unique brands of Catholic diversities.
Yes, I recognize that they are part of a "diversity-within-Catholic unity"...
Just like that I ask Catholics to respect Protestant denominations to be "diverse representations within the unity of the Body of Christ."
It's only when Catholic posters trot out Protestant diversity minus recognizing where it's unified that I haul the "orders" list...
After all, if the Orders were COMPLETELY on the same page, then their distinctions and uniqueness would be superflous and redundant...and all of the johnny-late-comers should simply honor the originals and "go away."
Obviously they don't, which means Catholics allow for some measure of diversity...within its unity.
That's not a negative thing...Our Trinitarian God Himself is diverse (Father, Son, Spirit) within unity (one God).
So, if Catholics want to emphasize Protestant diversity -- minus respecting core beliefs that exist among their denominations -- then I will continue to highlight Catholic diversity.
You don't seemingly "get it." All of these groups are "cults"...(tho there's been less unity among Christians in labeling 7th day Adventists as such)...
Mormons don't deem themselves "Protestants." We don't deem them Protestants. We're in agreement. So why are you out of seeming harmony on this?
Same with JWs.
I doubt Christian Science, which is closer to New Age beliefs, would in any way these days link themselves to Protestantism.
The Westboro Baptists are more of an "extended family" than they are either a church...they are certainly not a denomination...
Since you keep going in this direction, I'm rather surprised you didn't include David Koresh, Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, all the New Age cults, etc...
Bottom line, Cronos: If "offshoots" of Protestants = Protestants, then I guess that makes ALL PROTESTANT groups "catholic"...doesn't it? After all, "catholic" just means "universal"...and if all of these cultic groups are part & parcel of the "universal" church...well, hey, they are all "catholic," too...
We're all catholic chronos...
So why has Rome allowed such "diversity" in the "catholic" (small "c") church by letting all of these umbrella fringe "catholic" groups believe what they do?
oh, thanks for the correction -- well, tery, the thing is that there are not 20,000 different sets of core beliefs -- many retain the same beliefs but have different locations, or disagree on some organizational matter
Take just one sub-group: baptists -- there are about 50 odd baptist groups around the country, but I would guess there are no more than 3 or 4 different theological groups.
i would suggest stop using the 20,000 argument. The number is too random and too arbitrary and includes theological, geographical, linguistic and organizational differences
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