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Eternal progression after death is fun speculation for Mormons
Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | Oct. 15, 2012 | Doug Gibson

Posted on 11/15/2012 4:33:43 PM PST by Colofornian

(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post, click here) A key difference between Latter-day Saints and many other Christian churches is that Mormons believe that there are various post-judgment kingdoms in the outskirts of heaven. There’s the Telestial Kingdom, for anyone from Hitler to that lawyer who’s cheating on his wife. There’s the Terrestrial Kingdom, for those decent folks who said “not now” when the missionaries came by the door. And then there’s the Celestial Kingdom, the jackpot prize.

But even the Celestial Kingdom comes in degrees. According to Joseph Smith, there are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. So there’s the big leagues, triple-AAA ball, and AA ball in the Celestial Kingdom. The Terrestrial Kingdom is eternal single-A ball while Telestial Kingdom folks are damned to the rookie leagues forever.

And there’s a reason I say leagues, because Mormon pop theology also flirts with the idea of progression within the lesser kingdoms … and even from kingdom to kingdom.

I refer to one of the more obscure B.H. Roberts’ books, ”Outlines of Ecclesiastical History,” first written in 1893, but my edition is from 1927. The copy I have was used by an LDS missionary of that era. Roberts was one of the “progressive model” Mormon leaders of the first half of the 20th century. He favored a more expansive interpretation of Mormon doctrine. It was a doctrinal battle that Roberts and others would eventually lose, mostly snuffed out by Joseph Fielding Smith and the rise of ultra-conservative church leaders.

Anyway, Roberts, on page 416, parts 19 and 20 of The Restoration of the Gospel section, writes:

“The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial — that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. We can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture.

20. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory — having before them the privilege also of eternal progress — have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories, may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement: and thus between them is an impassable gulf which time cannot destroy. Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to entitle them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to entitle them to entrance into the celestial kingdom – they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.”

Now here is where things get really interesting. I went to an online archive of Roberts’ 1893 book for the last quote. And “… where they are” is where section 20 ends. However, if I go to the 1927 edition of “Outlines of Ecclesiastical History,” which I am holding in my hands, Roberts continues with this fascinating “conjecture”:

“But if it be granted that the chief fact about Intelligences is that they have power to add fact to fact and thus build up knowledge, and through knowledge have wisdom, and thus make progress; and if to such intelligence there is granted eternal life — immortality — then it is useless to postulate any limitations for them; for in the passing of even a few thousands of millions of years, even if progress be very slow — there will come a time when these intelligences — men and women of even the telestial glory — may become very acceptable characters, and very important personages.”

This is radical doctrine, and exciting to read. It brings Mormonism back to its most progressive roots. But, today, web searches include only the 1893 edition. Roberts’ speculation from 1927 is not there.

And since 1927, the idea of eternal progression toward exaltation has became a pariah. I came of age as a young Mormon in the 1970s and I recall more than one teacher telling classes that the idea that you could progress from any of the lower kingdoms to exaltation was damnable to consider. In fact, I recall teachers citing Bruce R. McConkie, who described the idea as one of the “Seven Deadly Heresies.” (here)

What is included in Roberts’ 1927 version was part of Mormonism’s move to more speculation of doctrine, more discussion. It was not to last, though. I have no idea of if the propensity to seeing the 1893 version of “Outlines …” online is due to disapproval of the 1927 edition, but I would not be surprised.

Today, if you go to the LDS apologetics group FARMS’ internal Wiki page on eternal progression between the three kingdoms, you get an odd non-answer that translated, more or less reads, there is no official church position on this, but it probably isn’t true.

Going back to Roberts’ book, section 7, page 408, of The Restoration of the Gospel,” he writes:

“Naturally the question arises why was the gospel preached to the spirits in prison who had once been disobedient if there were no means by which it could be applied to them for their salvation. We can scarcely suppose that Messiah would preach the gospel to them if it could do them no good. He did not go there to mock their sufferings or to add something to the torture of their damnation by explaining the beauties of that salvation now forever beyond their reach! Such a supposition would at once be revolting to reason, insulting to the justice of God, and utterly repugnant to the dictates of mercy!”

That part of Roberts’ teachings remains Mormon doctrine. It’s a reminder that the LDS belief that God does not have a “line” that divides all in a “heaven” and “hell” is still evidence of the faith’s exciting, progressive roots.

So, despite the JFS and BRM efforts to make progression within kingdoms a “sin” to speculate about, we Mormons do still wonder about these issues, and even discuss them among ourselves from time to time. (To read a fascinating article on Roberts’ and others debates within the LDS leadership over doctrine, go here).


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Eastern Religions; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: afterlife; antichristian; celestialkingdom; inman; lds; mormon
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To: reaganaut
I get tired of being lied about, lied to, and called names because I speak the truth.

You KNOW this is what we do, when you hateful bigots CONSTANTLY post facts directly from our own printing presses.

WE know how to destroy them. Why don't YOU?

--MormonDude(Just stay home at your ranch and LEAVE US ALONE!)

101 posted on 11/17/2012 4:01:17 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eva
I am offended by the obsession that you have with Mormonism and the mean spirited pettiness of many of the posts, along with bold face, large font capitals that spam the whole the page.

Thank GOD!!

And all along I thought it may have been the CONTENT of the posts; NOT just the way the type looks.

102 posted on 11/17/2012 4:03:11 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eva
I am offended by the obsession that you have with Mormonism and the mean spirited pettiness of many of the posts, along with bold face, large font capitals that spam the whole the page.

Eva; just for you I removed the colored, bold text that was posted in #50.

I'm sorry it hurt your eyes.

Can you see ANY 'mean spirited pettiness' in the following???




Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

103 posted on 11/17/2012 4:08:10 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw
There is not a single anti-mormon post, there are many anti-mormonISM posts.

I am SO through with this!

If they want to CONTINUE to try to personalize it; I'm going to let them.

You guys can waste yoiur time if you wish!

I'll only be doing it if a new screenname appears.

104 posted on 11/17/2012 4:09:43 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut

Question put to Harry Reid by mom as he was growing up:

“Harry!! You got your chores done yet??”


105 posted on 11/17/2012 4:10:59 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: combat_boots
I don’t learn anything.

Then it's YOUR own fault; as PLENTY of facts about MORMONism is being printed in these threads.

106 posted on 11/17/2012 4:13:12 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Harry Reid has achieved a more senior elected position in the United States government than any other Mormon in history

(Perhaps Mitt should either switch to be a CHRISTIAN or switch to be a DEMOCRT!)

WIKI


107 posted on 11/17/2012 4:24:14 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: combat_boots

hum?
There are people on this religion forum that post truth about mormonISM and there are people who know little to none that start trashing (as you put it) not the information but the poster, why not talk to them about responding to the information not the poster.
mormonISM foundation is anti-Christian - that is an issue to think about.


108 posted on 11/17/2012 7:10:20 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw

You aren’t working to expose the Mormons. We all know about Mormonism. The book only made it worse. What you are doing is trying to punish Mormons by insulting them and demeaning them. No one reads your drivel except your buddies, who already know it all, anyway.

That’s the problem, the anti-Mormon Crusade is mean spirited and hate-filled. That’s just not going to influence a lot of people and pushes people like me to defend the Mormons, rather than join your crusade.


109 posted on 11/17/2012 9:37:22 AM PST by Eva
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To: Eva

No and again it is not anti-mormon it IS anti-mormonISM.
You are apparently reading my dribble, just saying.
I do not desire to punish mormons, that doesn’t even make sense, if you see it as such there is nothing I can do about it.
You have stated in your reply to me that you know mormonISM yet continue to defend it, the question is why?
Why are you as you stated defending mormons by attacking the words of mormonISM, sorry, the posters who post the words of mormonISM.
If as you stated are offended by my anti-mormonISM posts, then explain why you are offended, what have I said is incorrect?
My experience with mormonISM goes back fifty years, I know mormonISM, I lived mormonISM, I will continue to expose mrormonISM.


110 posted on 11/17/2012 10:01:43 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Eva
What you are doing is trying to punish Mormons by insulting them and demeaning them.

No one reads your drivel except your buddies, who already know it all, anyway.

LOGIC 101 says these two statemnets don't compute!

111 posted on 11/17/2012 10:56:07 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eva
That’s the problem, the anti-Mormon Crusade is mean spirited and hate-filled.Then YOU should have NO problem with pointing out something MEAN and HATE-FILLED; right?

Do it; the jury is getting antsy!

112 posted on 11/17/2012 10:57:11 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw

Hi. That is what I meant. People here, especially on Mormon and Catholic threads, tear into each other so much that I avoid the threads. I don’t come to FR to tear into people here. Except for trolls, which is another thing enturely


113 posted on 11/17/2012 11:42:20 AM PST by combat_boots (Catho)
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To: combat_boots
People here, especially on Mormon and Catholic threads, tear into each other so much that I avoid the threads.

I hope we Christians are avoiding tearing into PEOPLE and tear into THEOLOGY instead.

114 posted on 11/17/2012 1:57:17 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

You keep printing incorrect stuff about my Church’s beliefs. For example, that Jesus Christ is not our (Mormons) Savior. That’s the biggest whopper! Also the stuff about Jesus not being the Creator. And on and on it goes.

You know what LDS Scripture is. You know what our Articles of Faith contain.

You keep condemning Mormons to hell - which of course is incorrect, too. That we are “lost” and need you to save us. Uh, hello! Jesus Christ is our Savior, thank you very much. I could go on and on.

You asked me to point to “incorrect” statements. Those are the biggest whoppers.

But cheer up, maybe you can get me banned/zotted for being a Mormon.

P.S. You can’t call us a cult anymore since the Rev. Billy Graham removed LDS from his ministry’s list of cults.


115 posted on 11/17/2012 4:36:29 PM PST by Saundra Duffy ( For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: Saundra Duffy

Sandy Graham never said mormonISM was not a cult, all he did was remove a web page .
Sandy you were never banned for being a mormon the admin has ready said that.
Sandy you have been given the words of your leaders, what you proclaim is simply not correct.
Sandy the teachings of mormonISM state ‘salvation after all you can do”, that is not Grace. No one can condem you to hell that is a free will choice.
Sandy show us why what we show you from your leaders words are not correct, prove it. Don’t just talk - prove it


116 posted on 11/17/2012 7:37:33 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Saundra Duffy

Sandy Graham never said mormonISM was not a cult, all he did was remove a web page .
Sandy you were never banned for being a mormon the admin has ready said that.
Sandy you have been given the words of your leaders, what you proclaim is simply not correct.
Sandy the teachings of mormonISM state ‘salvation after all you can do”, that is not Grace. No one can condem you to hell that is a free will choice.
Sandy show us why what we show you from your leaders words are not correct, prove it. Don’t just talk - prove it


117 posted on 11/17/2012 7:38:03 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Saundra Duffy
You keep printing incorrect stuff about my Church’s beliefs.

They keep printing things right from the horse's mouth, from Mormon official sources. How can those things not be Mormon belief? How else are we to know of your church's official beliefs, if it is not sourced from official sources? Are we supposed to believe you, a Mormon woman, instead?

Bring us examples from concrete sources, then the perpetual whining that your church is being misconstrued perhaps(?) could be established as justified. Can you do such? I mean, is it true you are a lawyer? I know of another lawyer that posts on RF threads. That dude rocks (he can make his case quite strongly)

For example, that Jesus Christ is not our (Mormons) Savior. That’s the biggest whopper!

Since that is the sort of thing which is difficult to both establish, and refute (for it is a matter of faith) I do see that held up by you habitually in effort to make your other overall claims. Like your repeated claim --- what many posters here show [print] are Mormon teachings --- are in some magic land somewhere over the rainbow, not "correct" in some way. I put it rudely like that, for you continually fail to bring real evidence to back your claims concerning the teachings themselves, which are the real issue, as evidenced by your own words, "They keep writing stuff that is incorrect".

You know what LDS Scripture is. You know what our Articles of Faith contain.

Yes, that's the problem? They know it and quote it, linking to texts, linking to discussions both old and current (like the article at the top of this thread) by which it is demonstrated that not only what you try to portray here as "incorrect stuff" IS NOT incorrect much at all, for when we find the matters in modern discussion, based on Mormon theological works --- how can any sane person say "that's incorrect"? "that's not what the church teaches"?

If you were pressed to argue your case in a court-of-law (somewhere far enough away from SLC for the Court to be disinterested) could you successfully make the case that Mormonism is being maligned on these threads? What evidence would you be able to bring? So far, all I see is is evidence of whining, and your own opinions concerning the matter.

let me guess here...will I receive yet another post from you proclaiming Jesus is your Savior? Ok fine. I'm happy for you. But what does that have to do with;

The issue isn't "you" or what you believe. The issue is what your church teaches. Perhaps you're in a congregation which clings strongly to some unadulterated King James version (not a Joseph Smith version of a King James, but something more in tune with a "revised standard" edition), and keeps the Book of Mormon on a back shelf gathering dust, along with writings such as Doctrines & Covenants, and is sliding towards more mainstream Christian belief & teaching. If so, then keep traveling, ye heretic. As a special added bonus, you won't need depend upon some fallible man which you marry (and tell me ladies, are any of your husbands infallible? that's what I thought you'd say, lol) to "call your name" so that you may enter in, to that place which is the Lord's after your time on this earth is done. Which takes us back to the subject matter of this thread.

WHAT EXACTLY concerning this telestial/terrestrial/celestial Mormon teaching, has anyone posted "incorrect" stuff about? To save time, and to keep the focus on the "they" which you mention, lets limit the inspection to what the "Inmans" have posted. You know who "they" are, don't you?

118 posted on 11/17/2012 8:54:41 PM PST by BlueDragon (i'll fly away, oh glory, i'll fly away ...when i die hallelujah by-and-by, i'll fly away...)
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To: Elsie

LOL.

BTW, I was at an animal adoption fair and the guy who owns the petting zoo is probably your doppleganger.


119 posted on 11/17/2012 9:45:46 PM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Saundra Duffy; svcw; All

P.S. You can’t call us a cult anymore since the Rev. Billy Graham removed LDS from his ministry’s list of cults.

- - - - - - - - - -

Sandy you keep deliberately misrepresenting the facts in order to claim the LDS church is not a cult. EVERY time I see this, I will respond and correct you. Perhaps you will get it and quit lying.

First of all, Billy Graham doesn’t speak for all Christians, second the removal of the ENTIRE list of cults (he did not remove just Mormonism) doesn’t change the fact that Mormonism is a cult.

Sandy is promoting the false intimation that Graham no longer believes Mormonism is a cult. That is not true. From Eric Johnson.

“We called the BGEA on October 24 and talked to a representative. When we asked if the media were putting words into BGEA’s proverbial mouth—that “Mormonism was no longer a cult”—the spokesman fully agreed that the BGEA’s action was being misinterpreted. He added that nowhere did the association ever make such a statement. According to Ken Barun, “We removed the information from the website because we do not wish to participate in a theological debate about something that has become politicized during this campaign.”

It can be debated whether this move was the wisest decision. In hindsight, the BGEA leadership must now understand that taking the article down created much more of a stir than if the article had just remained on the site. By deleting it, the media was able to twist this action into saying that Billy Graham must somehow no longer think that Mormonism is a cult. This simply is not the case.

http://www.mrm.org/billy-graham-mormonism-christianity

BGEA still considers Mormonism a cult.


120 posted on 11/17/2012 9:58:12 PM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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