Posted on 11/13/2012 5:24:17 AM PST by Colofornian
To summarize the chart below briefly:
It provides greater detail in documentation than what was elaborated in Part III.
The traditional Christ within Christianity is...
...uniquely THE ONLY begotten Son from eternity past, not one of millions of God's pre-existent "sons";
He is uniquely Savior, not one of millions of saviors per Mormondom;
He is uniquely Creator and divine and self-existent from eternity past, not one of MILLIONS of men who are somehow likewise "self-existent" from eternity past;
His blood is uniquely powerful beyond men's commandment-keeping -- lest the promise Jesus made to the thief on the cross become a false prophecy;
His blood is potent enough to cover ALL sins, unlike the Mormon Jesus who leaves men to "make up" for anemic blood via their own "blood atonement."
He absorbed God's wrath vs. the Book of Mormon violent Jesus who took out His wrath upon thousands of residents in alleged 16 Book of Mormon cities! The violent Mormon Jesus sunk, entombed, and otherwise destroyed perhaps up to 90,000 upon His death on the Mormon cross! The Bible knows no such horrific crucifixion aftermath fairy tales...
| Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible | Mormon 'Jesus' | Jesus of Bible |
| 1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past? | NO: Lds say ALL "intelligences" -- including Jesus -- existed (D&C 93:29) before becoming a "spirit" child born to a divine goddess on a planet near Kolob; yet Joseph Smith could not even keep his story straight here, giving a "revelation" in 1831 that "from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ" (D&C 39:1) + Alma 13:9 talks about the "only begotten without beginning of days" I openly dare LDS to forthrightly exegete Doctrine & Covenants 39:1, which says: Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ.... What does "from all eternity to all eternity" mean? "The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal & exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." Smith, p. 210 [TofPresidents of the Church] | YES: Bible: Before Abraham was, "I AM" (John 8:58) ["I AM" is a divine Name first introduced in Exodus 3:14 and means, "The Self-Existing One"...THE Jesus is self-existent and didn't need a "mom god" on a planet near Kolob to "progress" in His life. Mormons flat-out deny the teaching found in John 1:1, 18 and Micah 5:2, because they claim Jesus was part of a past creation process – (obviously if Jesus’ Mormon “father” was once a man, then Jesus was at some point “less” in stature at that “time”) * "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us [Jesus]" (Jn. 1:1,18). * ”But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2) |
| 2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, or to Christ as pre-eminent heir and creator of all things? | The Firstborn "spirit" of many born spirits on a planet near Kolob; the 'Mormon Jesus' at his "spirit birth" was only "more special" at his "spirit birth" than you or me only because He was the "firstborn" | In Hebrew culture, the firstborn = "heir"...Jesus was not the "first" to be born...though Paul also adds in Col. 1:18 Jesus was the "firstborn of the dead" -- the first to rise from the dead. Colossians 1:15-16 explains this Jesus as "heir" -- "firstborn" -- as this Greek word meant pre-eminent -- or has first right over all creation...Psalm 80:27 demonstrates this idea of priority of position as Col. 1:16 says Jesus is creator of all, all things were created for Jesus (cf. Hebrews 3:4) |
| 3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')? | YES "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269 implying that "Christendom" postulates a "mythical Christ" because we say Jesus is "uncreated" -- and part of a "triple unity" with the Father and Holy Spirit). | NO: 16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16) |
| 4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past? | NO: "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68; cf. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153) * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95) | YES: "He made Him WHO KNEW NO SIN to be sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); Christ "did no sin" (1 Pet. 2:22) |
| 5. Was Jesus always divine from eternity past? | NO: * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323) | YES: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, John 17:5); ...unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (Heb. 1:8) |
| 6. Was Jesus born "at" Bethlehem? | NO: "...he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem..." (Alma 7:10, Book of Mormon) | YES: Actual Jesus born IN Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1) not "at Jerusalem" Was Jesus born "at Jerusalem"? |
| 7. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?" | YES: The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72] | NO: I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42). |
| 8. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many? | YES: The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?... Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870); cf. how Mormons name themselves as "saviors" -- numerous citations: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? | NO: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14); "They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world.” (John 4:42) |
| 9. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane? | YES: * "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood more so than on the cross." (BYU Professor Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! ABible! p. 282) * "It was there [Gethsemane] that the Savior paid the price for all the sorrows, sins and transgressions of every human being who ever lives or ever will live." (Seventy -- Second Quorum -- Wolfgang H. Paul, "Gratitude for the Atonement," Ensign, June 2007, p. 15) | NO: This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims in Col. 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of the cross..." |
| 10. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death? | YES: Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith talked about "...a period of darkness at the death of Christ... "greater period of darkness and terrible punishment came upon the people in the Western Hemisphere because of their extreme wickedness..." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 45, Deseret Book Co., 1960) Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23) NOTE: Please read 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12 for entire picture of overwhelming destruction caused by the Mormon 'Jesus': Cities were supposedly all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)...All told, upon the Mormon jesus' death, he supposedly unleashes punishment. He levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people! [Note: Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible!] Yes, there was judgment on the cross! Yes, it was terrible! But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross! The sad result is that too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder a tremendous aversion to the cross exists among Mormons due to Joseph Smith's version of post crucifixion events! |
NO: The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10), to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10), and to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5) |
| 11. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature? | NO: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN) The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."] The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency." | YES, BOTH: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Other Biblical verses rejected: 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:24; Heb. 1:3 |
| 12. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels? | YES: Although the Book of Mormon makes some solid statements about Christ's powerful atoning blood (see, for example Mosiah 3:18), Mormon leaders wind up accusing Jesus of having rather anemic blood; yes, Lds "scriptures" highlight His blood as one which cleanses from unrighteousness (Alma 7:14, Book of Mormon; D&C 76:41, Doctrines & Covenants; Moses 6:59, Pearl of Great Price) -- unfortunately such ultimate cleansing is rooted solely on ability to keep commandments: "That by keeping the commandments, they MIGHT be washed and cleansed from all their sins." (D&C 76:52). Other related statements to diluting cleansing power of Christ's blood: * "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135-136) * "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! * "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation. Many go so far, for instance, as to pretend, at least, to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. His blood, without other act than mere belief, they say, makes us clean." (Lds Tract titled, "What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 31) * "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants" (Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, 3:247) | NO: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7); "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5); "... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."(Rev. 5:9); "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14); "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Heb. 13:12); "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus..." (Heb. 10:19); "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph. 1:7); Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9) |
| 13. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be? | NO: Due to unique Lds doctrine that (a) we were all eternal; (b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus; (c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation"; (d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people; (e) all temple Mormons become gods. (f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship. The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!) | YES: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of THE ONLY begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Jesus is either "the ONLY begotten Son" from eternity -- not one of MANY begotten spirit sons in some pre-existence -- or He is not unique; and if Lds say "begotten" references such new "condition" Jesus acquired upon conception in Mary's womb, how is it that Jesus suddenly became a Son and the Father suddenly became a Father -- unless it's true that Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie & Lds "prophet" Brigham Young taught that the paternity was a literal one -- that the Father came down and had sex with Mary!!! |
| 14. Can Jesus be prayed to directly? | NO: Yet... “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God…when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him…And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.” (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26, Book of Mormon) | YES Stephen, Acts prayed directly to Jesus! While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59) |
From the article:
The traditional Christ within Christianity is...
...uniquely THE ONLY begotten Son from eternity past, not one of millions of God's pre-existent "sons";
He is uniquely Savior, not one of millions of saviors per Mormondom;
He is uniquely Creator and divine and self-existent from eternity past, not one of MILLIONS of men who are somehow likewise "self-existent" from eternity past;
His blood is uniquely powerful beyond men's commandment-keeping -- lest the promise Jesus made to the thief on the cross become a false prophecy;
His blood is potent enough to cover ALL sins, unlike the Mormon Jesus who leaves men to "make up" for anemic blood via their own "blood atonement."
He absorbed God's wrath vs. the Book of Mormon violent Jesus who took out His wrath upon thousands of residents in alleged 16 Book of Mormon cities! The violent Mormon Jesus sunk, entombed, and otherwise destroyed perhaps up to 90,000 upon His death on the Mormon cross! The Bible knows no such horrific crucifixion aftermath fairy tales...
He lost.
You do realize that Mr. Obama was re-elected and Gov. Romney lost the election, right? Or do you just like to beat dead horses?
You do realize that I was posting about Mormonism on FR before Mitt Romney became a 2007 candidate?
I think it matters that Obama was re-elected and everyone will pay for Sandra Fluke’s abortions.
No more or no less than the distorted Jesus mainstream Protestant denominations have been pushing for the last two or three decades...
Gee, I though this this thread was about Mormonism. Romney wasn't mentioned once.
More Anti-Mormon bigotry. Please take it somewhere else.
More intolerance of the liberty of religious expressions? (Please continue...I wouldn't have you intolerant posters any other way!)
Shame on you - do you really want to deny a one-trick pony its only purpose in life? ;0
Don’t be lame. It’s called reading between the lines, as you should know.
Why not take on Buddhism ?
I think you’ve demonstrated sufficient intolerance toward Mormons.
It looks like reasonable analysis to me.
If one disagrees with a liberal and explains why, is it bigotry? If not, why is it different if one does the same for a Mormon?
Well, show me where the Buddhists congregate online in a real open forum...
(They don't do it here on FR)
Well, keep posting intolerant remarks toward my religious expressions...(you're not yet at the point of "sufficiency")
(I didn’t know it bothered you so much to see Mormon missionaries not vary much from their routine of ringing a doorbell or knocking on a door...Salt Lake City HQ must be dizzy with your calls, e-mails, and letters registering your disapproval of their 6-days-a-week regime)
How about picking on Islam for a change. I’ll take a clean cut teenager knocking on my door spreading good words,than a hairy, smelly, Muslim with a vest bomb spreading body parts.
No doubt we'd all benefit from your under-recognized literary skill while plumbing the depths of Zoroaster or perhaps Haitian Voodoo.
Get off it, dude.
I’d rather be surrounded by Mormons than live in a city of Muhammed worshippers.
Mormans have this strange thing about morality...they actually practice it.
Unlike our Muzzie president dorkface felon piece of excrement.
Get off it, dude.
I’d rather be surrounded by Mormons than live in a city of Muhammed worshippers.
Mormans have this strange thing about morality...they actually practice it.
Unlike our Muzzie president dorkface felon piece of excrement.
In-fighting has been a hallmark of Christianity since Paul took up the pen, given that the whole basis of Christianity seems to be “everyone is going to hell but me because I follow the correct set of arbitrary rules and you believe something weirder than I do.” Buddhism, an inclusive religion, would be difficult to argue with from the fundamentalist Christian perspective, as Buddhism lacks the targets (Holy books, dogmatic leadership) that organized religions have. A Buddhist would just nod their head and say:
“The five points of yama, together with the five points of niyama, remind us of the Ten Commandments of the Christian and Jewish faiths, as well as of the ten virtues of Buddhism. In fact, there is no religion without these moral or ethical codes. All spiritual life should be based on these things. They are the foundation stones without which we can never build anything lasting.” Swami Satchidananda
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