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God is Not a Torturer: Debunking the Doctrine of Eternal Torment
ReligiousLiberty.TV ^ | 10/17/2012 | Michael Peabody

Posted on 10/17/2012 5:32:20 PM PDT by ReligiousLibertyTV

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

[caption id="attachment_5052" align="alignright" width="215" caption=""The Water Torture.— Facsimile of a Woodcut in J. Damhoudère's Praxis Rerum Criminalium: in 4to, Antwerp, 1556.""]"The Water Torture.— Facsimile of a Woodcut in J. Damhoudère's Praxis Rerum Criminalium: in 4to, Antwerp, 1556." - Used to illustrate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cure[/caption]

Pouring water over the covered face of an immobilized person is a brutal thing to do. The captive experiences severe pain and an overwhelming sensation of drowning. Some victims have even been known to break their bones as they struggle against the restraints.

But waterboarding is nothing compared with what American theologian Jonathan Edwards described God doing in his famous 1741 sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” This tortuous existence extends into eternity from the moment of death.

American evangelist Charles Spurgeon preached that, “In hell there is no hope. They have not even the hope of dying; ­the hope of being annihilated. They are forever, ­forever, ­forever lost! On every chain in hell, there is written ‘forever’.  In the fires there, blaze out the words, ‘forever’.  Above their heads, they read, ‘forever’. Their eyes are galled and their hearts are pained with the thought that it is ‘forever’.  Oh, if I could tell you tonight that hell would one day be burned out, and that those who were lost might be saved, there would be a jubilee in hell at the very thought of it. But it cannot be­ it is ‘forever’ they are cast into the outer darkness.”

From the perspective of Edwards and Spurgeon, the depths of hell are inversely proportionate to the heights of Heaven, as an all-powerful God gives eternal life to both the saved and the damned. While tears and sorrow will vanish from Heaven, the saved live with enduring knowledge and are even expected to rejoice that somewhere else concurrently living souls of the damned ranging from evil dictators to their unsaved neighbors day after day experiencing continuous ripping pain throughout eternity. An unrepentant child who died 1,000 years ago is being tortured that much longer than a recent mass murderer.

But is this really something that God would do?  Does this belief influence how many Christians relate to the rest of the world?

In a 2008 USA Today poll, 57% of Southern evangelical respondents, and 48% of the general public, said that they believed torture can be justified to obtain information from suspected terrorists.

Why would be Christians be more willing to justify torture than the general public? It might go back to the doctrine of eternal torment in hell.  Many believe that God will engage in torture day and night for eternity, so it would follow that Americans fighting for a righteous cause are justified in engaging in torture for short amounts of time to meet their objectives.

In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, on September 13, 2001, Ann Coulter, in an infamous column wrote, “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.”

In Catholic theology, torture isn’t only reserved for the eternally lost. The church teaches that even the saved will suffer in purgatory for their sins until their debt of temporary punishment for venial sin has been paid through their own suffering.

But does suffering in hell appeal to the blood lust of an angry God, or do many Christians simply have the wrong picture of God? Where did this idea come from?

The doctrine of hell, as is commonly believed, has its origin in Plato and its application in the writings of Augustine who believed that God must punish, not only save, otherwise no human life, lived well or badly, made any ultimate difference. (See James V. Schall, "Regarding the Inattentiveness to Hell in Political Philosophy,"DivusThomas, (Piacenza), (#3-4, 1989), 273-79.)

Augustine believed that ultimately salvation from hell was the ultimate goal since one’s destination and one’s existence were the only things that were eternal. He divided society between the people who were saved in the “City of God” and the damned “Earthly City.”  Since the two “cities” were intermingled on earth, The City of God must be fortified against the hellish Earthly City by an all-powerful totalitarian church that could police and protect the flock.

Because humanity set on a downward course through original sin, Augustine created the framework for an intermingling of church and state which would be necessary to ensure the survival of public moral virtues that would save as much of society as possible.

Invoking the doctrine of eternal hell, Augustine made an argument along the lines that if two men lived in a house which people knew ‘with absolute certainty’ was about to fall down on them and kill them.  If the men were warned of the impending danger and they refused, what should we do? Should we rescue them now, and reason with them later, or leave them to die? According to Augustine, we should rescue them now, for "I think that if we abstained from doing it, we should well deserve the charge of cruelty."  (See Augustine, “A Treatise Concerning the Correction of the Donatists; or Epistle CLXXXV).

[caption id="attachment_5041" align="alignright" width="200" caption="Religious punishment: Burning at the Stake"]Execution by burning at the stake[/caption]

Accordingly, Augustine believed that it was the duty of the religious community to conduct investigations to locate heresy in Hell on Earth - Burning at the stakeorder to prevent the messages of heretics from corrupting the righteous. As a leading bishop, Augustine personally assisted in the interrogation, or inquisition of pagans, unorthodox Christians, and others he viewed as holding unacceptable beliefs. Ultimately, the Church took control over defining what was “true” doctrine and anybody who disagreed or preached contrary to these “truths” could be justifiably tortured or even killed in order to keep society free of harmful heresy and to fulfill the greater purpose.

So Christians acting with presumably good intentions resorted to techniques ranging from starvation to heaping burning coals on parts of the bodies of heretics. Then they started inventing ways to cause pain more efficiently while avoiding death in order to obtain confessions. Medieval torturers would tie the hands of the accused to pulleys on the ceiling and attach weights to the feet and ankles.  They invented methods of stretching the joints of subjects to the point where bones were pulled from their sockets. They pulled at skin with pincers and thumbscrews and invented waterboarding, a technique first practiced by the Inquisition against Mennonite Christians in 1554.

Augustine’s beliefs in eternal hell, just war, and torture continue to have a tremendous influence on the modern world.

Augustine would consider this vein of thought pure heresy, but if Jesus Christ would really provide for eternal life both heaven and hell, maybe Christopher Hitchens was on to something when he titled his book, “God is Not Great.” If, as I type this, God is burning people at unquenchable stakes, then why would He care about the temporal suffering of a child who lost his pet dog or a father suffering the ravages of cancer? Even His suffering and death on the cross lasted less than a day – how could a week, a year, a century, or eternity possibly be justified? How can a God like this possibly be “love”?

What a person believes about hell has a lot to do with what they think about God and how they believe people should be treated. As we enter times of social stress and ambiguity, when fundamental values are at stake, people of faith who doubt the power of God to change lives and believe that they are needed to fight the spiritual battle often engage a persecutory impulse, justified by a concept that whatever torture they mete out will be nothing to the fires of hell. In fact, for over a thousand years, Christians were religious persecutors.

I’m not a theologian so this may not be complete but here is a basic overview of what the Bible says about heaven and hell.

  1. God created a perfect world that was originally designed to last forever. God did not create a hell. It was not through a process of trial and error with death introduced before perfection. “God saw that it was good.”
  2. Satan was a high ranking created being who felt that he should be honored just like God was honored, and Satan accused God of being unfair and unjust – Satan argued that God’s love was not unconditional and unlimited and that if God’s rule was ever challenged, God would become a tyrant and arbitrarily destroy those who challenged Him. (If this sounds a lot like current popular teachings on hell, that’s because it is the same.)
  3. God allowed Himself to go on Trial before the universe of created beings. Was Satan right about God being an unjust tyrant? God’s argument was that He was both loving and just. The entire universe of created beings is the jury.
  4. In order to make his case, Satan was given an opportunity to tempt Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. God told Adam and Eve they could eat the fruit of any other trees, but not to eat the fruit of the tree of the “knowledge of good and evil”, because it would lead to their death. When they ate the forbidden fruit, Creation became mortal. Satan tempted them and said that if they ate the fruit they would not die, but that their eyes would be opened and they would know both good and evil. (Genesis 3)
  5. When they ate the fruit, plants and animals began to die, and it wasn’t long until people began to die as a consequence of the sin that had been introduced to the world through this action. God did not lose his love for humanity but He also knew that the penalty for their transgression was eternal death. (Romans 6:23 – “The wages of sin are death.”)
  6. Rather than destroy His created people like Satan said God would do, God found a way to pay the penalty for sin while allowing those who chose to live to avoid eternal death. When Jesus died on the cross, he paid the price for sin once and for all, and there was enough grace to extend to every person on earth. It is not limited. The saved will not have to supplement their salvation in purgatory. “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.” 1 Peter 3:8 (NIV).
  7. Jesus was placed in a borrowed tomb and was unconscious from His death on Friday until His resurrection on Sunday. Jesus did not descend into hell (he did descend to death) on Friday and did not ascend to heaven until after He was resurrected. In fact, He told Mary not to touch Him because He had “not yet ascended” to Heaven. (John 20:17)
  8. Jesus will return as He promised. The living who have been saved by accepting this sacrifice on their will ascend to heaven and the righteous dead will be resurrected at that time. (1 Thessalonians 4:13)
  9. During the 1,000 years after the Second Coming, the books will be opened and the saved will be able to examine all of God’s actions throughout history and to see whether the accusations that Satan brought forward were true or false. They will also determine whether God was just in his decisions involving those who were not saved.  (1 Corinthians 6:2,3 Revelation 15:3, 20:1-4.
  10. After that, there will be another resurrection of those who were not saved for the sentencing and final disposition. (John 5:29, Revelation 20:5,7) The actions of God will be explained to everybody who has ever lived in history. Satan will try to rally the unsaved to mount a physical attack on the Kingdom of God. (Revelation 20:8, 9). God’s “Great White Throne” will become visible to all inside and outside of the Holy City and God will pronounce judgment. (Revelation 20:12; Luke 13:28) At this point, everybody will bow before God and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2:10; Isaiah 44:22,23)Those who have been saved through the death of Christ will live and those who were not saved will be destroyed with finality along with the earth which has suffered the ravages of sin. "Fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured" all the unsaved. (Revelation 20:9, 15; see also 2 Peter 3:7) "The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).  “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 21:11).
  11. The destructive results of the fire will be eternal, but the fire itself will go out.  (Malachi 4:1-3)
  12. God will show his Creative power and recreate the earth again, just as He did at the beginning but this time those who are saved will be able to watch it happen.  In this new earth, there will be no more hell. The saved will be able to fully enjoy Heaven without knowing that somewhere else God is torturing those who are not there with them. God’s character will vindicated as a God of love and a God of justice.Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”  (Rev. 21:1-5).
  13. The perfection of Eden will be restored and the only remnants of sin and death will be the memories of those who lived through it. The curse of sin will have been destroyed.  “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign forever and ever.”  (Revelation 22:1-5)
Christians need not live as if they are victims of Stockholm syndrome, with irrational love for a captor who actively tortures His creation. Instead, the Bible paints a picture of a God who does not torture. The freely available gift is eternal life, the wages of sin are eternal death.

“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Revelation 21:4.

 

Thy mercy, O Lord, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.

Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O Lord, thou preservest man and beast.

How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

(Psalm 36:5-7)

 

###

 

For more information about the doctrine of hell, visit:

 

Hell Truth (Amazing Facts) - http://www.helltruth.com/

Brian P. Phillips - “Annhilation or Everlasting Torment?” Ministry Magazine (1996) http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1996/August/annihilation-or-endless-torment

Film: Hell and Mr. Fudge - http://hellandmrfudge.org/


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: heaven; hell; love; pimpmyblog; torment; yopios
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

‘This tortuous existence ‘

Pretty much ended his crediblility right there. Writer doesn’t know definitions of simple words, much less definition of Scripture.


41 posted on 10/17/2012 7:40:04 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: HerrBlucher




Sorry, but Jesus used the word everlasting in relation to hell several times. He either said it and meant it, or he didn’t say it, or he said it and did not mean it, or he lied. Take your pick.

Indeed. In the spiritual realm everlasting means just that. But then there is the annihilationists version:

The Word of God

The annihilationists version

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet — were burned up — and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever — which means for about a moment." (Revelation 20:10)

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. " (Revelation 14:10-11)

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented — for a moment — with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night — because they no longer exist — who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. " (Revelation 14:10-11)

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " (Matthew 25:41)

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire — which you experience for a moment — prepared for the devil and his angels:”

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment — by just being burned up and delivered from experiencing everlasting punished — but the righteous into life eternal — which means experiencing it." (Matthew 25:46)

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction — by ceasing to exist — from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47-48)

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire — and be burnt up — : Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched — but you will cease to exist." (Mark 9:47-48)

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. " (Luke 16:22-23) [Note that Jesus parables do not use real names, and use real physical realities to correspond to spiritual ones]

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments — which unlike my other stories, is science fiction because the dead spiritually know nothing — and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. " (Luke 16:22-23)

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. " (Luke 16:24)

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame — .which ongoing torment is not real." (Luke 16:24)

"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. " (Luke 16:28)

"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment — even though they will only experience annihilation." (Luke 16:28)




42 posted on 10/17/2012 8:09:23 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: HerrBlucher

And ReligiousLiberty.TV is another SDA front.


43 posted on 10/17/2012 8:14:00 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

There is a heaven and there is a hell and there is a Purgatory.

Are you aware that the references to hell are in the Bible MORE than the references to heaven?

Look up
hell
Gehenna
Sheol
Hades
underworld
netherworld

and I am sure someone will add another word here.


44 posted on 10/17/2012 9:37:15 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
The Hell of It. A Short Teaching on Hell
Dream of Saint John Bosco: to Hell and Back

Archbishop Chaput addresses the reality of Satan
Letter from Beyond
Catholic Word of the Day: GEHENNA (Hinnom, 10-17-11
To hell with Hell?
Gehenna
Hell Has to Be
The eternity of hell
Hell Is Not Empty and Pedophile Priests Will Go There" (Why Preaching on Hell is Salutary)
The Eternity of Hell
The Four Last Things: Hell

Catholic Caucus: HELL EXISTS AND WE MIGHT GO THERE!
John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Natural Calamities Divine Threats & Four Gates of Hell The four Principal Gates of Hell : I Hatred
Pope speaks with priests from his diocese about Heaven and Hell
Whatever Became of Hell? (HAS THE UNQUENCHABLE FIRE BEEN QUENCHED )
One Man's Visit to Hell
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 11: Hell
A Question Of Hell (One Minister Questions Its Existence)
Pope says hell and damnation are real and eternal
The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns

The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
IS THE NEW MASS ‘SOFT ON HELL’?
Heaven and hell seem to be forgotten
Which circle of Hell do You belong in?
"To Hell with Hell!": The Spiritual Dumbing Down of the Generations
Reflecting on Hell: Sermon for the First Sunday in Advent
The Reality of Satan and the Victory of Jesus and Mary (an Exorcist speaks out)
Beware the Serpent’s Promises
Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death(Only One 1/2 of 1% Think They Are Hell-Bound)
Sister Faustina's Vision of Hell

45 posted on 10/17/2012 9:38:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Hell is scrolling through pages and pages of text and undisplayed illustrations, cut and pasted from somewhere, all of which read by no one including the poster himself.


46 posted on 10/17/2012 9:41:24 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Revolting cat!

Groan! You are right.


47 posted on 10/18/2012 12:07:21 AM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: PastorBooks

But in the parable of Lazarus, it is said of the living “they have Moses and the Prophets” to save them from Hell.


48 posted on 10/18/2012 12:09:31 AM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: BlackVeil

“But in the parable of Lazarus, it is said of the living “they have Moses and the Prophets” to save them from Hell.”

When Jesus said that He hadn’t yet risen from the dead. It was too early to believe on Him for salvation. Moses and the Prophets looked forward to His time, when He would lay down His life for us.

All we have to do is surrender to Him, ask Him to forgive us and trust Him that He will, and He will give us His Spirit and eternal life.


49 posted on 10/18/2012 12:32:49 AM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
Do you accept the Old Testament accounts of the invasion of Canna?
50 posted on 10/18/2012 5:27:58 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: mquinn
Purgatory isn’t a place anymore; John Paul said so.

No, that was Limbo. How low can you go. Purgatory is still a ski resort. But it definitely is not a place prior to Heaven. Another one of Satan's great deceptions.
51 posted on 10/18/2012 5:45:31 AM PDT by crosshairs (America: Once the land of the free. Still the home of the brave.)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

He is right. He is no theologian.


52 posted on 10/18/2012 6:15:24 AM PDT by plain talk
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To: Campion
But the concept is certainly there when Paul speaks of those "saved, but as through fire" and when 2 Maccabees attests to the Jewish practice -- which continues today -- of prayer for the dead.

First, 2 Maccabees is part of the Apocrapha which wasn't viewed as Scripture by Most Jews and certainly not by Jesus and the first Christians. This is seen by none of it being quoted by Jesus or the first Christians even though it existed at that time.

Second, 1 Corinthians chapter 3 is a parable talking about the judgement of our works. It certainly isn't about a physical torture. Here is the actual Scripture:

1Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


First the foundation of every saved person is Christ, but what we do, our works, will be judged and those with value will recieve rewards and those without will be eliminated. These verses say nothing about a punishment for transgressions.

In fact the Bible says this about our transgressions:

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is no place in the Bible which says that we need to finish up or complete the payment for our transgressions. That's why Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross. Jesus did it all and there is no amount of suffering we can or need to do which would or could pay for our transgressions.

That is why Catholicism is wrong when it teaches:"Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."

(The above is from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm )
53 posted on 10/18/2012 6:46:34 AM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: ctdonath2
Continuing your line of reasoning: I don’t want to be a parent who would “put them out of their misery”.

Really? If your child or parent or grand parent or anyone that you loved was suffering and if that suffering was in punishment for some wrong they had done and they recognized their wrong, you wouldn't want to put them out of their misery? That's pretty sad. I would. Even my pets, who have suffered at the end of their life, I have shown mercy and "put them out of their misery."
54 posted on 10/18/2012 6:52:34 AM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: HerrBlucher
That is the reason why there are so many protestant sects, each claims to have the real Truth. I call that chaos.

I'm not speaking for all or any specific "protestant sect", I am reading and studying the Bible and believing in what it teaches. It is Christ and the Bible that is the "real truth" not any church or sect. In fact, Catholic churches are certainly not all of "one mind". So yes, there is chaos here on earth for us all, but the Way out of the chaos is found in Christ and the Bible, not in the traditions or teachings of man not supported by Christ or the Bible.

Believe what you will, what is true is true. We are not obligated to believe one way or the other about Hell, only to be obedient to God.

That I pretty much agree with. While I now know that the doctrine of eternal punishing is false, believing in that doctrine isn't required for salvation. Our primary purpose is to be obedient to God and in order to know what God wants of us, it's important/required to read and study His Word, the Bible.
55 posted on 10/18/2012 7:13:27 AM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: crosshairs; mquinn; frogjerk

It was never officially defined as a place. It IS the final purification for those already saved by the blood of the Lamb, by the grace of God. We can do nothing while in ther to improve our experience, only by repenting as much of our sins (and we have many) before we die do we “shorten” this final purification. Truly speaking, our lives are a continuous purification by God, making us Holy to be in His presence — nothing that we do purifies us


56 posted on 10/18/2012 7:20:52 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: redgolum
Do you accept the Old Testament accounts of the invasion of Canna?

I read that as "Old Testament accounts of the invasion of Canada" :)

57 posted on 10/18/2012 7:25:47 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: BlackVeil

Well, that is the limbo of the righteous — where the Jews who died before Christ went.


58 posted on 10/18/2012 7:26:53 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: frogjerk

Jesus blood cleanses us from ALL sin. There’s nothing left to be purified from.

Purgatory is an unscriptural constuct invented by the Catholic church. Once you die, there are no second chances. You make your decision here.

Follow Christ.

Or not.


59 posted on 10/18/2012 8:36:35 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: frogjerk

Jesus blood cleanses us from ALL sin. There’s nothing left to be purified from.

Purgatory is an unscriptural constuct invented by the Catholic church. Once you die, there are no second chances. You make your decision here.

Follow Christ.

Or not.


60 posted on 10/18/2012 8:36:38 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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