Posted on 09/09/2012 3:08:47 PM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
A recent sermon by Pastor David Jeremiah has been weighing heavily upon my mind.
He recounted the true-life story of contemporaries William Franklin Graham and Charles Templeton, up and coming young evangelists who began their ministries during the 1940s.
Most thought Templeton, rather than Graham, would achieve greater things in the name of the Lord.
But, in fact, the former fell away from his Christian faith – actually declaring himself atheist – while the great Billy Graham remained a good and faithful servant of the Most High.
Pastor Jeremiah shared the story of Graham and Templeton to remind his congregation (as well as those of us watching on TV or listening on radio) that, as Christ followers, “we are expected to run with endurance the race that has been set before us.”
Yet, in his next breath, the pastor said that, while Templeton did not finish the race he started, he still has a place in God’s kingdom.
Because, said Pastor Jeremiah, it mattered not that Templeton renounced the Christian faith he espoused as a young evangelist, nor that he went to his grave an atheist, since he one time gave his life to the Lord, he’s secure for all eternity.
That is the doctrine preached in many, if not most Christian churches, with which I have the most difficulty:
Once saved, always saved.
No matter how it is preached, or by whom it is preached – including Pastor Jeremiah, whom I greatly admire – I am unable to accept it.
For why would the Apostle Paul encourage us to run with endurance the race set before us if simply answering an altar call one Sunday gives us a lifetime Get Out Of Hell Free card?
And speaking of the Apostle Paul, suppose his life story was reversed. Suppose he spent the first part of his adult life preaching Christ’s salvation, but the second part persecuting Christians.
Would he be today in Paradise?
I think not.
“For it is impossible,” the Scripture warns, “for those who were once enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
The takeaway from that Scripture is that it is not enough to give our lives to Christ for a season, then fall away from our faith. We do not have a free pass to sin as it pleases us. We are expected to abide in Christ, as He abides in us; to live our lives according to his Word.
So those of us who believe ourselves saved should not be deceived. The Scripture warns, “Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Those who abide in such sins will spend eternity separated from their Creator. Even if they were one-time Christ followers, like Charles Templeton.
I read your first verse and realized you are sadly mistaken.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
I will not overlook the most well know verse in the Bible because it is a plain simple truth. It doesn’t say by grace are we redeemed...
We are saved by the blood of Christ and what you are saying it was a first step. That is Catholic theology. If you are Catholic you should tell the people so they know where you are coming from. Thanks.
You fail to understand there is a vast difference between the person who has been born again, the person who has a divine nature, verses Adam & Eve, even in their pre-sin condition. Christ was the second Adam, and much more than Adam, who was not God in the flesh. Christ is infinitely greater than Adam. In our glorified state, we will be incapable of sinning, because we will be like Christ. Currently, we must deal with the unredeemed flesh. Once a person is saved, Paul speaks of his salvation as being a completed deal. Whom God justified, He sanctified and GLORIFIED. God justifies FOREVER, a man the very moment he is born again. In the eyes of God, it’s already done! Whom He justified, He glorified. Paul speaks as if it’s ALREADY DONE — PAST TENSE. Adam had a choice to obey or disobey God, he disobeyed and died. The second Adam (Christ), via the cross offers man a choice. Be resurrected spiritually, or die lost and spiritually dead. Once the choice is truly made for redemption, there is no turning back. It’s similar to the angels who fell, they made their final decision, and redemption is not available for them. We were spiritually dead due to Adam’s sin, “God loved us even while we were yet sinners,” hence, he offered us redemption. Once we truly make the choice, it’s final, done, and cannot be reversed. It is God who initiates salvation. Glorification is guaranteed for those whom God justifies, and we’re fully justified upon repentance and acceptance of Christ. A decison for Christ is a one time, done deal that cannot be reversed.
My point is this, bb: unless one is willing to believe that individuals like Charles Templeton were deliberately deceiving everyone while they outwardly professed Christianity - that his twenty years as a preacher and missionary were an elaborate practical joke - then it is entirely possible to be personally convinced that you are saved, and yet not be saved.
Yes
Welcome to Free Republic.
OSAS is a relatively recent theology as is Sola Sciptura. I realize some think their interpretation is the “plain truth,” however the Church doesn’t recognize their authority over, say, any other individual who thinks otherwise.
BTW, it’s quite easy to find know where someone is coming from once they’ve been around these threads a while as has Salvation. You can click on their nick, and then view their posts.
thanks for your post...
PJ, Salvation has been one of the most preeminent, if not the most preeminent Catholic poster on this forum for the better part of a decade. Get your head in the game, son!
Is it possible to have a conversation without the snarkiness on the side? If not, then I said what I wanted to say and it was clear enough that I neither dismissed Scripture nor "knew more than them". In fact, I believe ALL of what Scripture has to say because it alone is the infallible, divinely-inspired WORD of God, AKA...the Sword of the Spirit. Peace be with you.
Christian Smith points out that the Westminster Confession comes up with the notion that all theological truth can be proved from the Bible using syllogistic deduction - that was in 1646, or the decade after Descartes' Discourse on Method claimed in 1637 that all philosophical truth can be proved from the mind using syllogistic deduction.
What we have in sola Scriptura is a trendy solution, by 1640s standards, for the problem of ongoing doctrinal disputes - it has now hardened from a fashionable trend to an unexamined tradition.
You cannot earn or merit Salvation in any way but that doesn't mean that you are not expected to obey and follow Christ in order to stay on course.Please, the OSAS doctrine goes hand in hand with the other marketing ploys that Protestant churches have come up with ever since the 1930s when they accepted contraception. The doctrine of OSAS sells the sizzle and that's the way Satan keeps people focused on what Bonhoffer called cheap Grace that is in essence just a way to whistle past the graveyard. It completely ignores the FACT that while no one can pluck you out of the hand of God you can jump right out on you own any time the same way the first followers of the heresy of Core left His hand.
The Catholic teaching that there is a difference between venal and mortal sins is soundly based on Scripture and makes it clear how one is to behave as a Christian in order to remain in a state of Grace. Non-Catholics can each decide for themselves that whatever they enjoy is harmless and only those things they don't enjoy, or don't want caught enjoying, are to be avoided. In 1929 all forms of contraception were a sin, shortly thereafter there was nothing wrong with contraception.
It's the same with queers being ordained or married to one another. The majority wants to ordain queers and allow them to be married to one another so the Scripture is reinterpreted to permit what the market wants. Gambling, tattoos, premarital sex, cohabitation before marriage, and a host of other things that were preached against as being sins only thirty years ago are now all just fine and fall into the big marketing bin labeled, "Christian liberty".
Protestantism always adapts to whatever the market demands. Individuals begin to ignore what their church preaches so the churches either reinterpret a verse here and there or simply say that this or that isn't clearly called wrong so it must be OK even though they argue exactly the opposite when it suits their marketing plan.
By your line of reasoning, the will of the Father that none should perish prevails anyway no matter what any of us do so we're all saved and headed for heaven sooner or later anyway. Which is exactly what OSAS boils down to, just totally fatalistic Calvinism except with everyone counted among the elect and incapable of being anything but one of the elect because it's the will of the Father than none should parish.
“. . . everything you said was devoid of the Bible. . .”
Pastor Jack, that is an unfair characterization of my statements. Perhaps you did not read all of my posts on this thread. I quote the following Scriptures, and did a couple of summaries on other verses, as follows:
“Esau’s fate: “For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.” Hebrews 12:17
John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.”
Jesus tells us to beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Also he says Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light.
Judas, who knew the gospel, professed faith, walked with Jesus, actually kissed Him - yet betrayed Christ.
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:1-3).”
Hardly devoid of Scripture.
have a nice day
Isn't it ironic? OSAS doesn't give any assurance of salvation in the end.
Thanks for your informative post.
Your mention of the Westminster Confession reminds me that it, and other confessions, would not be necessary if the basics of Sola Scriptura held in practice. All would agree negating the need.
After recently going back to study the Reformers starting with Luther, it seems clear to me that Luther had an aha moment - and scripture opened up to him in a way that answered some nagging questions he had. He saw it fit so clearly, to him anyway, that he thought once proclaimed everyone would agree with his new view: “yep, that’s plainly what scripture says and means.”
It wasn’t long before he was proven wrong, the box was opened for all manner of competing exegesis. Thus came the need for the various confessions to unify reformer congregations around a set of the “plain meaning” of scripture.
The confessions became the new authority, the reformers’ magisterium. Today, even that organization has broken down and we have each his own confession.
In other words, the heresy of Universalism.
I understand your point, dear Wideawake, and it is why I repeated that it is God alone who looks at the heart. Only HE knows if repentance and faith in Christ is genuine. All we mortals can do is look at the outward appearance and we see "fruit" in someone's life to be an indicator of their spiritual state. That's why, I believe, Jesus and the Apostles all stressed the importance of holy living and obedience to God's commands - people SEE the Lord in us. We all probably know someone who was turned off to Christianity because of "all the hypocrites" in church and no matter how we try to reason with them about Christ coming to save the sick and not the well, for the unrighteous - which we ALL are - and not for the righteous - which NONE of us is of ourselves. Great damage has been done for the cause of Christ due to the sinful lives of those who may profess to BE Christ followers but whose lives are far from showing it. Paul said to the Corinthians:
On the contrary, we tolerate everything in order not to put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of the Messiah. (I Cor. 9:12)
As for the people such as Templeton, I do not claim to know his heart nor his motives. I find it hard to believe that he could have continued a "ruse" for twenty years - it's not as if being a missionary or pastor is such a glamorous and rich lifestyle. Paul also addressed those who are "called" to the ministry:
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (I Cor. 4:1-5)Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
I don't know Templeton's heart, I can only leave it in the Lord's hands who will judge men's hearts and motives. I can only be in charge of my own. I can say that I know I AM saved because of what Christ has done for me, not what I have done or do for him. Thank you for the respectful, as always, manner of dialog. I hope you have a good night.
You're right. Seems to me that OSAS is pretty much just the marketing slogan that eases folks into the heresy of Universalism sooner or later.Ending up at Universalism seems inevitable once the heresy of Core was revived because "everyone knows" that each individual is their own priest, pastor, bishop, pope, or whatever else they feel like being on any given day. As such, each individual decides what the requirements for being a Christian are and therefore cannot possibly not be a good Christian.
That's also how “obey your prelates” ends up either being ignored or interpreted to mean, "do your own thing".
So, the answer is NO, then? You are not able to have a conversation without being snarky? Okay. I had hoped for a different outcome this go around.
No, not ironic at all. Assurance of salvation isn't dependent on a person's feelings or their merit but on the faithful promises of Almighty God and which he repeatedly confirms through his God-breathed Scriptures. He gifts to us eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. We receive his gift by faith and his grace assures us that what he has promised he WILL do. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
I can't MAKE anyone believe that, it is something that the Holy Spirit confirms within a person's heart when she/he hears the gospel. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." But, anyone who is resting on his own good works, righteous deeds, corporal works of mercy, to save himself will never be assured of his eternal destiny. OSAS is the simple acknowledgment that we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves and, if God saves us by his grace, he also keeps us saved by that same grace.
Believe me, five minutes after going to Confession a person is saying/reading/doing their penance.
They would not be committing a mortal sin again. (I’ve never heard a Catholic take the name of God in vain in church.)
Well now you are a found Catholic and can come back to the Sacraments after sitting down with a priest and getting your questions answered.
I invite you.
There you go again.
Lay your snark out and pretend it's the other person all you like but when someone deliberately ignores responding to Scripture that makes a point they don't want to address and proceeds with their canned talking points it's insulting snark of the first order not the feeble stuff like, "this go around".
Those who disagree with you aren't being "snarky" when they present a clear Scripture based objection to your view and when anyone insults others by ignoring their responses they're very clearly not hoping for any sort of polite discussion.
Rather than continuing with this feigned victim status ploy, you can go straight to a polite discussion any time just by explaining why you believe that others should accept your personal opinion of what Scripture teaches when they have to ignore the inspired Word God to do so. Or, is this another case of, "that's what Scripture says, but that's not what it means"?
have a nice day
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