Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Eucharist -- John 6
CatholicThinker.net ^ | 2009 | CatholicThinker

Posted on 08/18/2012 9:13:06 PM PDT by Salvation

The Eucharist

All Christians know what "the Eucharist" is - virtually all celebrate it in some form.  Yet the teachings regarding it, and consequently the emphasis put upon it, by the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox, who share the same theology and same apostolic priesthood), is probably the single most important differentiation between Catholicism and Protestantism.

In this document I will demonstrate that the early Christian Church believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, centered their faith lives on this (the Mass), that Scripture completely and fully supports the Catholic teachings, and that virtually every Church Father of whom we have record confirmed this in his writings.  Some of these Fathers were direct disciples of Apostles in the 1st century of Christendom.

Protestants have many arguments against the Eucharist and the Mass.  They understand, correctly, that these things are the very heart of Catholicism (“Destroy the Mass, destroy the Church” – Luther).  To touch upon perhaps the greatest error (or most twisted teaching): Christ is not “re-crucified” at the Mass (a ridiculous and purposefully ignorant teaching): rather, Christ’s single, timeless Sacrifice on Calvary is “made present” and presented to the Father.  (Such a concept was readily to familiar to the early Christians, most of them Jews who considered their Passover sacrifice to be the “re-living” of the Exodus, not just its remembrance.)  God, of course, lies outside the bounds of time; all time is stretched out before Him to see.  Because humans offend Him with sin constantly, and in the present, it is fitting that His just anger be appeased continually by Christ’s propitiatory Sacrifice.

And this is exactly what we see in Hebrews and Revelations, understood by the first Christians as describing the Heavenly liturgy: the Lamb of God is presented continually to the Father, a propitiatory and eternal Sacrifice.

Christ ordered us to eat His Body and drink His Blood, in those words, and He meant just what He said, as we will see.

I can only scratch the surface of the deep and amazing theology of the Eucharist in this short essay.  I can present the core teachings of Scripture and of the early Church Fathers but I cannot, in the interests of reasonable length, speak to every “objection” or cover all the evidence completely.  Such is not my goal – and in any case I am not a scholar.  My goal is to whet the appetite of the sincere Christian to explore this topic at greater length.  What I will say is that the evidence for the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist on the Mass is overwhelming; the Catholic teaching and interpretation is the only reasonable one based on Scripture and the only one that is in harmony with the teachings and practice of the only early Christian Church we know of.  This is why it was not ever seriously challenged or even questioned until more than 1,500 years after Christ.  (If you think I am posturing here, the objective reader will see that is not the case.)

(Some Protestant denominations – such as the Anglicans - teach something somewhat similar to the Catholic ("Universal") teaching, but there is missing from all of them the heart of the Catholic teaching, that the Eucharist is both a thanksgiving and a re-presentation of Christ’s Sacrifice in propitiation for sin and that the species of bread and wine are really, substantially, and permanently changed by the act of consecration performed by the priest, who stands in persona Christi in Christ's stead.)

[Note: the Douay-Rheims translation of Scripture is used throughout.  In the words of John Salza, “It does not suffer from the defects of many modern Bibles (non-literal, dynamic translations; inclusive language.”  And “It is a word-for-word translation of the Latin Vulgate (compiled by St. Jerome from the original Hebrew and Greek under Pope St. Damasus), which is the official translation of the Catholic Church (the Vulgate has been universally used in the Latin Rite for over 1,600 years).”  If I occasionally find a passage in this translation obtuse –and I do – I merely examine the passage in a more modern translation as well and then the meanings of the archaic English idioms are made clear.

I declare that there is no argument presented herein that is in anyway dependent upon this particular translation of Scripture, and that if anyone wishes to challenge me on that with respect to a particular favored version (such as the KJV) I will respond.]

 

Scripture

John Chapter 6

The Lord's words establishing the basis for the doctrine are spoken in the Last Supper accounts, but possibly most importantly in John Ch 6.  Here are verses 46-65:

[46]  Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. [47]  Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48]  I am the bread of life. [49]  Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50]  This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. [59] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. [60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

[61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? [62] But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? [63] If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? [64] It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. [65] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

[66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67]  After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

There are a few important things to note about this passage:

Christ’s followers here – the non-believing ones – could not accept that He meant His words literally.  So, He repeated himself four times – four times He stated directly that one must “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood” to “have live” (eternal live, that is). 

  • When these disciples responded with incredulity or doubt, asking for clarification, He only repeated His words, more strongly (adding “drink his blood”).
  • Some of His disciples “walked no more with Him” as a result of this teaching.  He did not attempt to keep them from going, as He surely would have if they had merely misunderstood the words.  No, it is even more obvious that His words meant exactly what He said, literally, for if not the teaching was not “hard” and would not have resulted in disciples who could not accept it.  In fact, this is the only instance recorded in the Gospels of Christ losing followers over a doctrinal matter – because they could not accept a teaching as given.
  • The literal meaning of the Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) actually means "chewing" or "gnawing” – a very graphic word that would not be used in metaphor.

The Protestant counter to the clear meaning of this text – the Catholic interpretation – relies on rather tortured logic and forced (not just non-literal) exegesis.  Christ, responding to those who found His words too “hard” to hear, said “It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing”; Protestants assert that Christ is now saying that, actually, flesh – His flesh – is of no real import.  But clearly this just doesn’t make sense – if that is what He meant then just went out of His way to make the point that His flesh is most critical only to contradict Himself – but allow those who evidently “misunderstood” Him to walk away anyway!

In fact, what Christ was doing in that verse was condemning human reason which prevented the scoffers from accepting and believing what He was telling them.  This is evident when He condemns judging “according to the flesh” later in chapter 8.  Christ is telling these disciples to open their intellect to divine guidance to understand the divine truth He was giving them.

[As a brief aside, a tendency in modern Protestant spirituality seems to be to downplay the physical world in favor of the “spiritual” – however, the physical world is intrinsically good because God made it and, furthermore, the Incarnation – God taking flesh – is indeed the pivotal Event of the universe.  Christ’s flesh gives us eternal life, which the elect will one day share with him in our glorified bodies.]

[We can see that some of the fatal flaws in the Protestant cornerstone of sola scriptura are evident here.  This doctrine says essentially that Scripture is plain enough for anyone to easily understand, yet when it clearly teaches something that is not to the liking of some readers, rather forced attempts to bend the plain meaning are introduced.  What is taught here is very simple and direct, and in any case, if it is not, this only goes to show that personal interpretation of Scripture apart from any Authority (that is, the Authority given by Christ to the Church's first head, Peter, and from he to his successors) is not possible or intended.]

This short document that expands upon the points I’ve made here:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

The Last Supper

Jesus Christ instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper; on that basic point, sans definitions, all or almost all Christians are in agreement.  The differences lie in these questions:

  • When Christ said "This is My Body" did he mean what He said?
  • When Christ said "Do this in remembrance of Me" what, exactly, was He commanding, and what do those "remembrances" constitute?

The Catholic teachings are that Christ meant exactly what He said when He consecrated the bread and wine and that these became, instantly, mystically His true Body and Blood, and that the "remembrance" of the Eucharist is actually its reliving - it's making-present of that event, which was a sacrifice (because Christ's actual Body and Blood were present), the Calvary Sacrifice itself.  These things are all made plain by both the Greek text of Scripture, other Scriptural passages, and the practice and teachings of the early Church and all the Church Fathers.  In fact, the actual meaning of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was accepted so uncritically by the Church the details of it were not debated until about ten centuries in and the teaching was not seriously questioned, much less rejected, until the "Reformation" - more than 1,500 years after Christ.  This is made clear by the statements of the Church Fathers later in this document.

Before we look at an analysis of the Greek text, consider this basic point about Christ's own words at the Last Supper: If He had intended to mean that the bread and wine were merely symbols of His Body and Blood, He would have said so.  He was speaking to uneducated men who hung on His every word and who would build His Church.  Since it is an undebatable fact that the Church believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist universally for 1,500 years it would have been utterly scandalous and preposterous for Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, to speak the words that caused this belief if they were not actually true.

And now, the Greek, courtesy of John Salza, which refutes the (contrived) Protestant objection that the bread remained bread because Christ's "this" refers to the bread: "The Greek transliteration of "This is my Body which is given for you" in Lk 22:19 is Touto esti to soma mou to uper hymon didomenon.  Like many languages, Greek adjectives have genders (masculine, feminine, or neuter) which agree with their object nouns.  The word 'this' (touto) is a neuter adjective.  The word 'bread' (artos) is a masculine noun.  This means that the neuter adjective 'this' is not referring to the masculine noun 'bread', because their genders do not correspond" (emphasis mine).  "Instead, 'this' refers to 'body' (soma), which is a neuter noun.  In light of the grammatical structure, Jesus does not say 'This bread is my body,' as the Protestant argument contends.  Instead, Jesus says 'This [new substance] is my body,' or more literally, 'This [new substance] s the body of me.'

Paul emphasizes the connection between 'this' and Jesus' 'body' even more conspicuously.  In 1 Cor 11:24, Paul records Jesus' words as Touto mou esti to soma.  As we can see, mou (of me) comes immediately after toutu (this).  Literally, this phrase is translated as 'This of me is the body.'  That is, Paul connects 'this' to the Person of Jesus more closely by adding 'of me' right after 'this' and right before 'body'.  Again, the Greek does not allow 'this' to refer to the bread, but to the new substance, which is Jesus' body."

The passages concerning the wine/Blood in Mt 26:28 uses completely analogous Greek grammar.

Salza also notes that the phrase "touto esti" (this is) is used six other times in the Gospels and in every single case its object is literal - not once is it used in a metaphor or any sort of symbolism.

Another common Protestant objection is that Christ was referring to his future death in mentioning His Body & Blood.  But the tense of Christ's language in the Greek is what's know as double-present; it is absolutely in the present tense and cannot possibly refer to any future event.  (Christ's saying "This is My Body" is mystical and reveals the (instantaneous) action of the Divine in the same way His healings did: "Pick up your mat and walk."  The Word speaks and it is.)

It is very interesting to note that Christ's phrase "blood of the covenant [or testament]" is identical to Moses' as he sprinkles the Israelites with animal blood.  As Salza notes, "The Jewish apostles would have understood immediately that Jesus was instituting, at that very moment a New Covenant sacrifice that would replace the Old Covenant sacrifices."

The Memorial Sacrifice

After Christ consecrated and distributed His Body and Blood, He commanded the apostles to "Do this in remembrance of Me."  That word - remembrance - is very important, because the Greek word it is translated from refers to a deep and complex concept that has no proper word or even short phrase in modern languages.  That word is anamnesis, and, according to the best evidence, means a type of memorial sacrifice.  What is a memorial sacrifice?  Note that it's not the memorial of a sacrifice but rather a sacrifice that is itself a memorial - a critical distinction.

Because there is some contention regarding the meaning of anamnesis, we will look at how it is used elsewhere in the New Testament and the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament).  

In the Old Testament, anamnesis is used to refer to either a bread sacrifice or a blood sacrifice - a memorial sacrifice, that is.  Lev 24, full of the same terminology of priests, eating, memorial sacrifice, incense and bread that surrounds the Eucharist, speaks of the anamnesis of Aaron's priesthood.  And Numbers 10 speaks of the burnt offerings of anamnesis offered to God to atone for sin.  The parallels with the New Covenant Sacrifice are plentiful.

Anamnesis is used only once in the New Testament outside of the Last Supper narratives, in Heb 10, where Paul speaks of the Levitical sacrifices.

So, the concept of anamnesis existed in the Hebrew culture (religion): as mentioned in the Introduction the Passover itself has always been regarded by Jews as not just a remembrance of the Exodus, but as a re-living or "making present" of those events.  And so it is with the Eucharist: It is the making-present, in a mystical way, of Christ's sacrificial death.  When Christ said "Do this anamnesis" He literally said "Celebrate this memorial sacrifice".  And so the Church has always done:

1 Corinthians

But we needn’t guess as to whether or not the first Christians understood Christ’s directive about eating His flesh as He said it or not, for this is made apparent with further clarity elsewhere in Scripture (and in the record of the early Church).  In 1 Corinthians, Paul discusses the nature and importance of the Eucharist.  Here is Ch 11:23-30:

[23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24]  And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25]  In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

This passage makes it extremely clear that Paul – who received his understanding of it directly from Jesus Christ, as he declares – regards the Eucharist as truly the Body and Blood of Christ.

First, Paul adds a critical interpretation to the words of the Last Supper: “For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.”  Thus, the Eucharist is primarily about Christ’s death – that is, His Cacrifice.  Paul does not even mention the Lord’s resurrection in describing the essential quality of the Eucharist.  (This demonstrates that the primary nature of the Eucharist (Mass) is solemn, because it is primarily about the Lord’s Sacrifice.  The Eucharist (Mass) is primarily a sacrifice and secondarily a meal – because in all of God’s sacrificial covenants the sacrificial victim is consumed.  We will return to this sub-topic later.) 

Next, Paul is chastising the Corinthians for not having proper respect for the Eucharist – for receiving it unworthily.  He points out that because of this many of them are sick and dying.  “Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord... For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep” (have died).  

Probably the biggest take-away from this passage is that the Eucharist cannot be simply a symbol.  It is impossible that anyone be “guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord” if the Eucharist were not indeed actually “the Body and Blood of the Lord”, and not merely a symbol of such!  Furthermore, the “guilt” (krima) that Paul says is called down upon those who partake of the Eucharist unworthily is nothing less than eternal damnation – it is used to mean such by Paul in both Romans and 1 Tim.  As John Salza says, “Either God inspired Paul to impose and unjust penalty on us (which is impossible) or the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.”  There are no other possibilities.

[Protestant apologists, aware of this passage’s relevance to the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist, frequently attack Paul’s use of the terms “bread and cup”, asserting that this demonstrates that Paul actually did regard the Eucharistic species as mere bread and wine.  But, like many Protestant challenges to Catholic doctrines, this argument seems either ignorant or contrived when the facts are considered (and like them all it is incorrect).  Paul uses the terms somewhat interchangeably as to the senses the Body & Blood do appear as bread and wine – he is emphasizing the fact that while the sacred species may appear to be mere bread and wine, it is necessary to “discern” the Body and Blood of the Lord in them – or suffer the punishment he warns of.  Again, Paul’s dire warning, and indeed the entire passage, simply make no sense if it is simple bread and wine that are being discussed.]

Chapter 10 of 1 Corinthians also contains some Eucharistic theology we will consider.  In this chapter Paul reminds the Corinthians of the experience of the Israelites under Moses: the miracles of the parting of the sea and of the manna, their spiritual food:

[1]  For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea. [2]  And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud, and in the sea: [3]  And did all eat the same spiritual food, [4]  And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.) [5]  But with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the desert.

He then warns them against idolatry (as the Israelites also fell into) and temptation.  And then, he instantly shifts to speaking of the Eucharist:

[16]  The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? [17]  For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread. [18]  Behold Israel according to the flesh: are not they, that eat of the sacrifices, partakers of the altar?

Clearly he is drawing a parallel between the Israelites spiritual food – the manna – and the spiritual food of the New Covenant.  That is, like so many things in the New Covenant that were prefigured in the Old, the manna prefigured the Eucharist.  Now, consider this:

  • The manna was truly miraculous: food created miraculously out of nothing in the desert. 
  • Every element of the New Covenant that is prefigured in the Old is greater than that which is prefigured.
  • Thus, the Eucharist is indeed a greater miracle than the manna.

If the Eucharist were nothing but a symbolic representation of Christ in what possible way would it be greater than the miraculous creation of food out of nothing for thousands of people?  In no way would it be.  However, since the Eucharist is actually God Himself becoming our food and drink, it is indeed a far greater miracle than the manna in the desert.

[John Salza’s exegesis of 1 Corinthians 10 & 11 in The Biblical Basis for the Eucharist is the best I’ve ever seen, and includes in-depth analysis of significances of the original Greek text that are largely lost in translation.  Here is one example: “Paul’s use of the word ‘participation’ (or ‘partake’ in the Bible version I’m using) (Greek, koinonia) also demonstrates that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.  Koinonia means an actual, intimate communion, or sharing, in something else.  T does not refer to a symbolic or metaphorical participation.  The Corinthians would have certainly understood Paul’s usage of the term.”]

Hebrews & Revelation

The books of Hebrews and Revelation contain vivid imagery of Jesus Christ in heaven, interceding for us before the Father with His shed Blood as a propitiatory sacrifice.  The theology of the Eucharist is bound up in this imagery, as taught and believed by the early Church.  It is a stunningly deep and beautiful theology, woven together with the teachings and prophecies of the Old Testament, but eclipsing the Old Covenant as the perfection of God eclipses fallen man.

Melchisedech and Jesus Christ

In the Letter to the Hebrews, Paul makes the case that Christ is a priest "in the order of Melchisedech"  (or "Melchizedek").  "Thou art a priest forever, in the order of Melchisedech" (5:6); "Called by God a high priest according to the order of Melchisedech" (5:10); "Where the forerunner Jesus is entered for us, made a high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech." (6:20).  John Salza points out the most pertinent details of Melchisedech priesthood:

- Melchisedech is described as the "king of Salem" - this also means "king of peace", a prototype of one of Christ's titles.

- Melchisedech was made a priest by God directly, not via bloodline (as with the Levitical priesthood); and his priesthood was eternal as well.  This foreshadowed Christ and His New Testament priests, who acquire their priesthood via an oath (sacramentum).

- Melchisedech offered an unbloody sacrifice of bread and wine, a thanksgiving (eucharistein) for God's deliverance of Abram from his enemies.  "As Melchisedech offered his sacrifice of behalf of Abram, Jesus would offer His sacrifice on Abram/Abraham's [spiritual] offspring those who are members of His Church" (Salza).

- Melchisedech is greater than Abram, one of the holiest men in all of Scripture.  This is made evident by the fact that Melchisedech blesses Abram.

- Since Melchisedech was called a priest but made no bloody offering, his bread and wine offering must have been a sacrifice (this is sometimes contested by Protestant apologists trying to wiggle out of the plain interpretation of the text).  This also makes clear (as do many other things), that Christ's Last Supper offering was a sacrifice since Christ's priesthood is "in the order of Melchisedech".  "Further, because Scripture says Jesus made a 'single sacrifice' and 'single offering', this means that the Last Supper sacrifice and the sacrifice of the Cross are the same sacrifice" (Salza, and the emphasis is his).

Salza goes on to describe the many parallels between the Mass and Melchisedech's offering.

Christ in Heaven Today & Forever

After introducing Melchisedech as a prototype of Christ, Paul, mainly in chapters 8-10, discusses the priesthood of Christ in detail - the eternal priesthood He exercises before the Father in heaven.  That it is Christ's perpetual priesthood in heaven that is being discussed by Paul is made completely clear.  Furthermore, he states directly, "If then he were on earth, he would not be a priest: seeing that there would be others to offer gifts according to the law" (8:4).  (Meaning He would not be a priest since He was not a Levite.)

- "Now of the things which we have spoken, this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of majesty in the heavens, A minister of the holies, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord hath pitched, and not man" (8:1-2).

- "But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation: Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having obtained eternal redemption (9:11-12).

We come now to the meat of the matter: What Christ the Eternal High Priest is doing in heaven, as "minister of the holies and of the true tabernacle".  Salza: "Scripture teaches us that the principle duty of a priest is to offer sacrifice.  Paul in the epistle to the Hebrews says, 'for every high priest... is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sin' (5:1)... Paul then says about Jesus, in the very same verse, 'hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer'.

Note that Paul says it is “necessary” for Jesus to “have something to offer” in Heaven!  Where do Protestants get the notion (that they tend to express so confidently along with several other of their core theological tenets that actually contradict Scripture) that Christ’s work was completely and entirely finished on the Cross?  In a sense, it was, as Christ’s Sacrifice is singular, the same Sacrifice continually presented to the Father for the appeasement of our (constant) sins, yet according to Paul Christ is indeed doing something in Heaven on our behalf.

To summarize this important passage:

  • All priests, according to Paul, offer "gifts and sacrifices"
  • Christ, then, the Eternal High Priest, also must have something to offer
  • The only thing the Father could possibly accept as a propitiatory sacrifice from Christ would be the Cross, because anything else would be less than this, and since the Father has decreed from all time that Christ's Sacrifice was what was necessary, He could not at some other time be satisfied by any other gift or sacrifice.
  • The reason perpetual appeasement is necessary, until the end of the world, is that mankind persists in sin until the end of the world.
  • Thus, Christ perpetually presents to the Father His one-time Sacrifice, His shed Blood, and the Father is appeased.

Protestants are rightly disturbed by the notion of Christ being "re-crucified", either in heaven or the Mass.  But this is not what Scripture teaches and not what occurs.  Salza notes that whenever Scripture speaks of Christ's suffering it is always in the past tense.  But when it speaks of His Sacrifice, it is in the present tense and connected "with His appearance in heaven to empathize that both the sacrifice and the appearance are ongoing".  See Hebrews 7:27 and 9:12 for example: in both verses Paul uses the phrase "once for all" to describe Christ's Sacrifice and his entering of the holy place in heaven.  In other words, these are ongoing, perpetual actions.  (And, interestingly, Greek has verb tenses that make this ongoing action explicit, but English does not.)

In the descriptions of the heavenly liturgy in Revelations (which never fail to put a lump in my throat), John calls Jesus the Lamb that "was slain from the beginning of the world" (13:8).  (In fact, Christ is referred to as the "Lamb" twenty-eight times in this book, emphasizing his propitiatory sacrifice.)  He also describes Him as a Lamb "standing, as though it had been slain".  But slain Lambs do not stand.  These verses are describing the Atonement as both eternal and timeless, always present before the Father.  Salza comments again about the original text: "The Greek is translated as 'having been standing' (histemi) and 'having been slain' (sphazo).  John's use of perfect participles to describe both Christ's standing and slain conditions indicate that Christ began to exhibit those conditions at a specific moment in the past, and that both conditions are ongoing."

The use of "altar" in both Hebrews and Revelations further underscores the sacrificial purpose of Christ's presence before the Father, for there would be no altar without a sacrifice.  Christ's bloodstained clothing is likewise that of a priest, for Christ is both High Priest and Victim of the Sacrifice.  And the vision of the Apocalypse is connected to the Eucharist by the reference to "hidden manna" - Christ likened His Body and Blood to the manna, it's Old Testament prefigurement, in the Gospel.  Salza: "The manna is 'hidden' by our senses but revealed by faith, which God desires from His New Covenant people."

Christ "entered once" into the holies (the Holy Place) with his "own blood" (Heb 9:12).  In these verses Paul sets up comparisons between the imperfect animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant and the single, perfect Sacrifice of the new.  The OT Levites took animals' blood into the earthly sanctuary while Christ does the same in the heavenly fulfillment of its purpose.  And, again, we must note that Paul speaks of the ongoing application of Christ's sacrifice, speaking in the present tense.

And then there is something extremely interesting, something that will take us ultimately where we are going: Paul reveals to us (in one of those details that it always popping out of the richness of Scripture, and so easily missed) that Christ's single Sacrifice does have a plural component.  Here is Heb 9:22-24:

And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission.  It is necessary therefore that the patterns of heavenly things should be cleansed with these: but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.  For Jesus is not entered into the holies made with hands, the patterns  of the true: but into heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.

"Better sacrifices"!  There is absolutely no doubt that Paul is speaking of the Sacrifice of the New Testament here, but there is only one.  How does the Sacrifice of Calvary have a plural dimension?  Paul's readers, the first Christians, who were instructed primarily by oral tradition as the Gospels and most of the epistles had not yet been written, much less copied and distributed, would know immediately that he was referring to the Sacrifice of the Mass, where Christ's Sacrifice is made really and truly present.  But Paul does explain the connection in his letter here as well.

Paul tells us that Jesus is the “mediator of a new covenant”.  Jesus used these words “New Covenant” only one time, when He instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper.  So, these terms (New Covenant, blood, and forgiveness of sin) appear in Scripture only in the Last Supper account as well as here: there can be no doubt of the direct connection.

As we have seen, Paul has also told us that Christ’s priesthood is modeled after Melchizedek’s, who offered bread and wine

 

And one final example that Scripture teaches that the blood of the Eucharist is really and truly Christ's Blood.  The phrase "the blood of the covenant [testament]" appears only twice in the New Testament: used once by Christ when He instituted the Eucharist and then again by Paul (who, again, received his instruction about the Eucharist from Jesus Christ directly) in Hebrews (13:20-21):

"And may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great pastor of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, in the blood of the everlasting testament [covenant], fit you in all goodness, that you may do his will; doing in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom is glory for ever and ever. Amen."

In the quote above Paul wishes that Christ's blood will "fit" [equip] us in goodness and cause us to do His will.  Only Christ's actual blood could be said to have such a power - not a symbol of it!  Thus, if "the blood of the Covenant" is not Christ's Blood, Paul has seriously misused Christ's words from the Last Supper.

"It Is Finished"

As I have alluded to above, there is another objection Protestant apologists raise to deny that Christ is perpetually offering sacrifice in heaven (as the Scriptures we've looked at clearly teach): they point to Christ's announcement from the Cross, before His death, that "It is finished".  Does this mean that at that point, of His death, that His work for eternity was completed?  Surely, His death on the Cross, and thus the fulfillment of certain prophecies, were "finished", but not necessarily His actions in eternity.

In John 17:4, Jesus says He has "finished" the work the Father sent him to do - before the Crucifixion.  It is never possible in the exegesis of Scripture to make assumptions about the meaning of a single word; the entire passage must be examined carefully using all available tools.  

Here is John 19:28-30, where "finished" is used twice - although Douay-Rheims actually uses accomplished and consummated, apparently a more faithful translation:

Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.  Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth.  Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost. 

I am once again going to quote John Salza for an analysis of the Greek text (which I am far from capable of):<quote snipped; stay tuned>.

And he continues with something fascinating: "What did Jesus really mean when He said 'I thirst'?  He was thirsting to satisfy the Father's wrath against our sins.  The wine Jesus receives is an allusion to the cup of God's wrath.  Jesus presents the cup at the Last Supper, acknowledges it is the Garden of Gethsemane, refuses to drink it while He carries His cross, until He finally completes His propitiatory sacrifice.  This continuity of the 'cup' from the Last Supper to the Cross underscores that they are one and the same sacrifice.

The Church Fathers And The Early Church

Here's a really great synopsis of what the major Fathers had to say about the Eucharist:

http://therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

This demonstrates that essentially every Father of the Faith that we have on record spoke of the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, usually as a given but occasionally in defense.  (Please do keep in mind that there was no Church but the Catholic Church at this time - outside of a few minor, heretical sects.)

The above document is very long; here are a couple other tidbits.  In AD 107, St. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, wrote a great deal about the Eucharist as he "traveled westward to his martyrdom".  Ignatius' words should probably be given more weight than even the average Church Father - in his youth he was a disciple of the Apostle John himself.  If anyone would know Christ's true teachings on the Eucharist in the 1st century, it would be someone like Ignatius, who was taught by one who walked with the Lord.  Here's one quote:  "Take care, then, to have but one Eucharist.  For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to show forth the unity of His blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, along with the priests and deacons, my fellow servants."

Here is how he combated the early heresy denying the presence of Christ in the Eucharist (which surfaced again at the Reformation, this time to stay): "From the Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ."  Who today among baptized Christians does not confess that the consecrated Eucharist is the flesh of the Savior?

Next, I'm going to quote passages from the Didache; this is a document written in Antioch between 50-100 AD that is attributed to the Apostles (its historocity is completely established).  It too shows that the Eucharist was the center of Christian worship, and that the structure of the Mass is extraordinarily similar to what we have today.  The quotes come from The Lamb's Supper; Hahn cites his references therein.  The following passage is the Eucharistic Prayer from the Didache, again, dating no later than 100 AD:

“As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and, gathered together, became one, so may Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the Earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever and ever.  But let no one east or drink of this Eucharistic thanksgiving, except those who have been baptized into the name of the Lord… Almighty Master, You created all things for Your name’s sake, and gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to You; but You bestowed upon us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Your Son…Remember, Lord, Your Church.  Deliver it from all evil and perfect it in Your love; gather it together from the four winds – the Church that has been sanctified – into Your kingdom which You have prepared for it."

And, concerning another sacrament, the ordination of priests (Holy Orders): "Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist which is administered either by the bishop of by one to whom he has entrusted it."

Here is another very old passage describing an early Mass - this is attributed to the 2nd century - AD 155.  A man known as Justin who was the first Christian to make public many details of the faith wrote it.  This except is from a letter he wrote to the Roman emperor.  Again, its description of the Mass is uncannily similar to how we celebrate today:

"On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.  The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.  When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.  Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves... and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.  When the prayers are concluded we exchanges the kiss. Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.  He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name o the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.  When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying "Amen".  When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the eucharisted bread, wine, and water and take them to those who are absent."

(Note his use of the term "eucharisted", showing that he realized that a transformation (transubstantiation) of the bread takes place.)

Aquilina has this to say: "In both the Old and New Testaments, the faithful found intimations of the Eucharist.  The narrative of the Last Supper often appears in this context [early Mass], as do Jesus' Bread of Life discourse and the 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians.  But these 'literal' references, while foundational, were only the beginning.  Like Jesus and Paul, the early Christians also discerned a 'spiritual' sense of the Scriptures, a mystical meaning behind the literal sense of a story or precept.  Thus, while they [rightly] believe Jesus' multiplication of loaves was a true event, they also believed that he performed it as a sign prefiguring His Eucharist.  Indeed, that connection was so commonplace in the early Church that Origin, uncharacteristically, did not bother to explain it in his commentary on Mathew (10:25), but merely mentioned it in passing.

The early Christians used the same interpretive key on the wedding feast at Cana, where Jesus changed water into wine.  Likewise, when Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, and St. Cyril understood the "daily bread" to be the Eucharist.

Such Eucharistic interpretations extended also to the Old Testament, where the Fathers found many "Types" that would be fulfilled in the antitype of the Mass.  A type is the foreshadowing of something greater; Adam, for example, is a type of Christ (Romans 5:14).  An antitype is the fulfillment of the thing foreshadowed: Christ is the antitype of Adam.  Read in the context of the Eucharist Psalm 23, with its "table" and anointing was, for Cyril of Jerusalem, a foreshadowing of the sacraments.  For Origen and many others, the story of the Passover and Exodus was rich in Eucharistic typology, as was the account of Melchizedek in Genesis 14.  The offering of fine flour by those cured of leprosy (Lev 14:10) was, according to Justin, a sign of the bread that would be offered for the forgiveness of sins.

The prophecy most often applied to the Eucharist was from Malachi.  "For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts, but you profane it" (Mal 1:10-12).  For the Fathers, the Eucharist was the Church's participation in the one sacrifice of Christ, the everlasting hope and extension of his love!  In the accounts of the Didache, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Cyril, and many others, the Mass is "the Sacrifice" offered by the Church - the Church that was itself the Body of Christ.  Christ, then, is the offering - the Passover Lamb - and Christ was the priest who made the offering.  The offering was perfect and the Priest was sinless, thus fulfilling in glory all the sacrifices of ancient Israel."

Such heady stuff, indeed!  The Catholic Church, from the time of the Apostles, is so alive, so real, so physical, that we've no doubt at all that Christ is with us, as He promised, until the end of the age.

"In every place incense is offered to my name" - how right the Fathers were, guided by the Spirit - in their time, the Mass was not yet said "in every place", but it was not long before the Church could indeed be found in every place in the world - every single nation.

Miraculous Evidence for Christ's Real Presence In The Eucharist

Take a look here:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

and perhaps here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs

Is this just too incredible to be true?  God couldn't work in our world like this?  And why could He not?  My future wife and I saw the Miraculous Host and Blood in Lanciano in May 2006 on our European pilgrimage.  I really can't describe what it was like to see in person. 

[Please do note that this would be rather impossible to fake.  It is well documented that it has existed throughout the centuries, unchanged.  This alone is a miracle - it is open to air and should have decayed to dust if it were any sort of natural material.  It is also certain that, even in modern times, science lacks the ability to create organic material such as this, genetically human and yet in the form of a Host.  Of course, there are always those that claim such inherently Catholic miracles are fraudulent.  These folks fall into two major categories, in my experience: religion-hating atheists and fundamentalist Christians.]

This site contains documentation on many other Eucharistic Miracles as well – there are dozens affirmed by the Church.  The Church realizes the miracles are not "proof" of anything, really - they are gifts from God to strengthen our faith in a world of doubt.  They are wonderful and beautiful and demonstrate the incredible truth and beauty of our faith.  But our faith does not come from them - it is the other way around; it is faith that allows one to believe in miracles.  This does not mean one can’t rationalize one's way around them if such is the goal, but to do so does require the abandonment of reason as well as faith.  These miracles are not only supported by reason; sound reason demands their acceptance as miraculous.

Conclusion

This essay has touched upon the richness of the Sacrament of the Eucharist in the Catholic faith.  The Eucharist, more than any other Sacrament, belies the persistent and pervasive "bias against the physical" that Catholic converts from Protestantism often comment on as being present in Protestantism (especially modern American Protestantism).  The notion that God can and does impart grace through the physical is antithetical to this mindset.  A word used by several of my favorite Catholic apologists (most of them former Protestants) to denote the opposite of this mindset is Incarnational.  For, says David Currie, when one learns to fully appreciate what our God becoming a human being with a human body really means, the notion that He would provide us his grace through physical things is not at all strange.

- Catholic teaching & understanding so much more beautiful and deep than P, which is staid, human, pathetic even.

- world is full of evil and we NEED to make reparation for our sin.  Protestant errors cost people their souls.

It is important to point out that the Catholic Church (along with the Orthodox) is the only place where a true Eucharist - the Real Presence of Christ - can be found.  Only the Catholic Church actually teaches the doctrine, as it has unchanged and unceasingly for nearly 2,000 years.  And the Church (again, along with the Orthodox bodies, who are in formal schism with the hierarchical Church Christ founded) is the only body where the chain of apostolic succession remains valid: it takes a validly ordained priest to perform consecration.  In fact, due to the lack a valid priesthood, savvy Protestants are aware that a valid Eucharist is not possible within their worship structure, even if they would believe in the Real Presence, and it could be said that this may be another reason why their most committed apologists spend so much time attacking the Catholic teaching.

- It's a matter of faith; every Christian must examine the evidence and either accept or prove why they shouldn’t.  No excuse for not thirsting for truth.  The lukewarm are spit out.

He promised us he would be with us, and He is, in a real, direct, and physical way, "until the end of the age".

References:

Salza, John, The Biblical Basis for the Eucharist, Our Sunday Visitor, 2008.

Aquilina, Mike, The Mass of the Early Christians, Our Sunday Visitor, 2001.

Hahn, Scott, The Lamb's Supper, Doubleday, 1999.

Jurgens, William A, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Liturgical Press, 1980.



TOPICS: Catholic; History; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; eucharist; holycommunion; john6
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180 ... 201-220 next last
To: Salvation
Jesus spoke of living water to the Samaritan woman. Was it physical water? He commanded us to cut off our hands and gouge out our eyes if they caused us to sin. Would anybody sane actually do that?

On the other hand, he commanded: "That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another." How did he love us? He gave his whole life for the salvation of all. At the last supper, Jesus said "..do this in remembrance of me." What did Jesus DO? He gave thanks to God for the gifts he had received which sustain life, and he gave them away.

The Eucharist is gratitude to God for the gifts we receive which sustain life, and charity with same. You can make it yourself in every moment of every day. When someone else makes it and gives it to you, the value is primarily for them. The value is in giving it away.

We perform the ceremony with bread and wine to commemorate this teaching. The bread and wine are symbols, but the underlying teaching is very real.

141 posted on 08/20/2012 7:33:16 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
"That is why I began mine with "the Jews..."."

Can you or anyone define exactly who "the Jews" were that this Gospel is referring to? Were they simply residents of Judah, a few Hebrew speakers, or some other identifiable group? (If you can do it from Scripture its extra credit)

"- but they actually stuck around a bit more, didn't they?"

Some did, many did not. Those that stayed were Christians, those that left remained Jews. That is clear from the Scripture.

"The very elements that Catholics consume in the Eucharist are NOT literally changed - no matter how much protest and insistence is made that they are. They REMAIN and retain the same properties that they started out as and the only change is the spiritual perception of the ones partaking."

We continue to speak past each other on this, probably due to the limitations of English to properly convey the actual meanings of the words spoken by Jesus. The accidents of the bread and wine, described as fruit of the earth/vine and works of human hands in the liturgy of the Mass do not change, however the substance is transformed into the Real Body and Real Blood of Christ. It is the Epiousion, the "Panem Supersubstantialium, the "supersubstantial bread", the Eucharist.

"Ton arton hemon ton epiousion"
"Panem no­s­t­rum supersub­s­tantialem da nobis hodi­e."
"Give us this day our daily bread"

Peace be with you

142 posted on 08/20/2012 8:33:18 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | View Replies]

To: Springfield Reformer; All

“Have you repented of your false prophets? If not, we have nothing to talk about.”

~ ~ ~

Protestant brothers (mostly in this thread) and sisters, you can’t reject all your prophets. Our Lord speaks to Protestant messengers. He is getting you ready to accept the faith. Please, you can, pray about it.

I’ll post two very serious and current messages from Heaven which say the same because we are in the end times, the Great Tribulation is close. The GT begins soon as near as the end of this year~!

Our Lord is there, present in the Eucharist state men taught by the Apostles and we can know reading the written Word. Jesus said “This IS My body” not “This is a SYMBOL of My body” or the other for denial, consuming bread and wine is a “REMEMBRANCE” of Our Lord’s suffering death on the Cross” which makes no sense.


143 posted on 08/20/2012 10:56:11 AM PDT by stpio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 125 | View Replies]

To: All

The first message is to a well known Protestant messenger.
The second, I’ve posted recently, it is so serious. Jennifer is Catholic. They’re saying the same, yes?

The Eucharist is true, when God shows the world soon, all souls, believe. Catholics wish you would believe before the Great Warning happens.

~ ~ ~

THE RED HORSE OF WAR

Thus saith the LORD:

“The grace of peace is about to be removed from the nations. The grace of financial security and stability is about to be removed from the wealthy nations that have hoarded their money and resources from the poor of My people. I will remove the shields of protection and allow the enemies of the West to bring destruction through acts of terror. War is coming in Israel, the Middle East and to the West. Once the Red Horse of War is loosed, it will not cease on the earth for seven years until I return to set up My Kingdom upon the earth. The time of Tribulation is almost upon you, O earth, earth, earth - hear the Word of the LORD!

Look to when I take my servant Billy Graham home. When I do, it shall be a prophetic sign that the Age of grace will end soon after. Wake up and be ready for My appearing in this Midnight Hour, O backslidden church - I am coming for My Bride who has made herself ready. Repent and prepare to meet thy God, or to be left behind to endure the My wrath upon the wicked of the earth who have hardened their hearts against Me. O EARTH, EARTH, EARTH, HEAR YE THE WORD OF THE LORD.”

Maurice Sklar
August 16 2012

http://the-christians-forum.com/topic/4897746/1/

_ _ _ _ _

message to Jennifer

5/22/12
7:43 PM

My child, I say to My children that mankind relies too much upon himself and it is there that you become the victim of your own sinfulness. Heed to the Commandments My children for they are your entrance into the kingdom.

I weep today My children but it is those who are failing to heed to My warnings that will weep tomorrow. The winds of spring will turn into the rising dust of summer as the world will begin to look more like a desert.

Before mankind is able to change the calendar of this time you will have witnessed the financial collapse. It is only those who heed to My warnings that will be prepared. The North will attack the South as the two Koreas become at war with each other.

Jerusalem will shake, America will fall and Russia will unite with China to become Dictators of the new world. I plead in warnings of love and mercy for I am Jesus and the hand of justice is soon to prevail.

http://www.wordsfromjesus.com/2012.html


144 posted on 08/20/2012 11:09:17 AM PDT by stpio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: Running On Empty
Thank you for your kind words :) I agree with you on the simplicity aspect. I think that's why I love my Scriptures more each day, but I don't seem to get past a verse or two in my prayer time. Or some days it's a single word. Thank you for sharing your list. Lately I've been hung up on verbs from the passion narratives. Mocked. Spat. Blindfolded. Jesus went through so much humiliation (before outright torture) for me. And yet, I've done worse things than mocking or spitting on him. Far worse. Contrary to the assertions of antiCatholics, I'm well aware that God's grace is not something I can ever earn. All I can do is attempt to discipline myself to be docile to his working in my life. And be thankful for the undeserved gift of salvation He gives :)Peace be with you.
145 posted on 08/20/2012 2:19:35 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot ("A wise man's heart inclines him toward the right, but a fool's heart toward the left."--Eccl 10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

You are correct. John does not have the account of the Last Supper in his Gospel. But remember that John was writing much later and was writing theology. He had the synoptic Gospels and some of the writings of St. Paul in front of him.

John, supposedly, lived to a ripe old age.

So, Chapter 6 of John is the Discourse on the Bread of Life — explaining the Last Supper to those who were not present. Some listened and their hearts were changed. Some had hard hearts and walked away. Note that Jesus didn’t call them back and say something like I was only speaking symbolically — he lets them leave.


146 posted on 08/20/2012 2:46:05 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
"...the Roman Catholic dogma states is that the "transubstantiation" in the Eucharistic service IS the changing of the elements into the LITERAL (and it DOES use that word) body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ."

I think you are being too casual or careless in your recounting of this dogma. While the Church teaches that Christ is indeed literally present, it does not claim that the bread and wine literally change. The Church teaches that the bread and wine "substantially" change. Why do you suppose it is referred to as a "host"?

Peace be with you.

147 posted on 08/20/2012 2:47:41 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212
in each case the Lord was using such to bring them to the analogical spiritual plane, and likewise in Jn. 6.

There's an important difference though. After the teachings you reference, Jesus didn't turn to his apostles and ask if they would leave too. And Peter wasn't prompted to make a profession of faith.

As the apostles were Jews they would have no problem understanding “this is my body” as the elements referring to representing Christ,

In 1 Cor 5:7, Paul tells us that Jesus is the Paschal Lamb. Jews understood that the Passover lamb was killed, had its blood sprinkled, and then was eaten. Apart from addressing the crowd with the teaching of John 6, Jesus also privately and in the context of the passover seder ate his Last Supper with the apostles, instructing them to "Take, eat; this is my body." (Mt 26:26)

I think your observation about the apostles being Jews is a good one. An important one. And one that underscores that at the Last Supper, they well understood Jesus was instituting something new and that it transcended symbolism.

And which would be unlike any other physical miracle, for in these there was an actual detectable change.

Jesus told us, as I noted in a post above, that the only sign would be the sign of Jonah, i.e. his resurrection. After he arose, he said those who believed without seeing were blessed. Why does faith alone not suffice for taking Jesus at his word at his last meal with his apostles? Peace be with you.

148 posted on 08/20/2012 3:21:22 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot ("A wise man's heart inclines him toward the right, but a fool's heart toward the left."--Eccl 10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 135 | View Replies]

To: PeevedPatriot
I realize this comment wasn't addressed to me, but Jesus said no sign would be given apart from his resurrection. Did he not tell Thomas that those who believed without seeing are blessed? Isn't a lack of proof scriptural?

Like I have been saying all along, the "presence" of Jesus in the Eucharist is a matter of perception for the person participating in the ordinance. This is patently obvious because the "elements" do NOT physically change. So, whether someone believes he is literally consuming the body and blood of our Savior or believes that the bread and cup represent the body and blood of Christ broken and shed on the cross for our salvation, should NOT matter as long as the person believes in Christ as Savior. We are blessed, Jesus said, because we believe in Him even though we do not see him physically.

I hope you aren't saying that Catholic believers are ignorant!

No, I am not saying that, only that many people are roped into believing in the Catholic Church because it claims it ALONE has the means of granting eternal life (i.e,; the Eucharist and its propitiatory purpose).

That's not what the Church teaches. My confessor gives me recommendations for growth in the spiritual life. He doesn't insist that I do something. The Church instructs me on the ORDINARY means of salvation (such as regular communal worship at Mass, regular confession;etc) but teaches that these are the ORDINARY means. God is free to work outside the ordinary, and I don't know a single Catholic who believes otherwise.

But that IS what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and it was reiterated in the OP, which said:

    - Catholic teaching & understanding so much more beautiful and deep than P, which is staid, human, pathetic even.

    - world is full of evil and we NEED to make reparation for our sin. Protestant errors cost people their souls.

    It is important to point out that the Catholic Church (along with the Orthodox) is the only place where a true Eucharist - the Real Presence of Christ - can be found. Only the Catholic Church actually teaches the doctrine, as it has unchanged and unceasingly for nearly 2,000 years. And the Church (again, along with the Orthodox bodies, who are in formal schism with the hierarchical Church Christ founded) is the only body where the chain of apostolic succession remains valid: it takes a validly ordained priest to perform consecration. In fact, due to the lack a valid priesthood, savvy Protestants are aware that a valid Eucharist is not possible within their worship structure, even if they would believe in the Real Presence, and it could be said that this may be another reason why their most committed apologists spend so much time attacking the Catholic teaching.

    - It's a matter of faith; every Christian must examine the evidence and either accept or prove why they shouldn’t. No excuse for not thirsting for truth. The lukewarm are spit out.

I hope you read the OP because this is what I reject. The RCC also has historically stated that "outside of the Roman Catholic Church no one can be saved". Vatican II backtracked a little from that (so much for everywhere and always believed and the "infallibility" of the Pope) but it STILL states that anyone who knows the Catholic Church is the "true" church and leaves it cannot be saved.

Then respectfully, may I ask why faith alone in His word about His Eucharistic presence isn't sufficient? Why proof is required?

We are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone because of the grace of God. Jesus' words about "his Eucharistic presence" is a product of the RCC's interpretation of what Jesus said and it was a doctrine that developed over centuries - NOT something that the first Christians believed. I believe that Jesus Christ was literally, physically present on earth and that he literally shed his blood and died on the cross for my sins. I do not need to pretend that He is "there" in the elements when I participate in the Communion service at my church, because Scripture teaches Jesus is ALWAYS with us and we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit - sealed until the day of redemption.

I "ate" his flesh and "drank" his blood when I received Him as my Savior. I believed on him and He became my bread of life, water of life, His blood cleased me from ALL my sins and I am redeemed and will never perish because that is what Jesus said. Why do some Catholics not pay attention to what Jesus says elsewhere? Why do they reject that Jesus said we ARE saved by faith in Him? Why does the RCC insist that works must be added to our faith to be saved when Scripture says "NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 2:5)?

149 posted on 08/20/2012 3:59:51 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
"Like I have been saying all along, the "presence" of Jesus in the Eucharist is a matter of perception for the person participating in the ordinance."

That is patently ridiculous. Was the divinity of Jesus during His ministry on Earth merely a matter of perception since the elements of His fully human body were still present?

"I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. - John 6:51-58

Peace be with you

150 posted on 08/20/2012 4:27:03 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

Do you understand the word “transubstantiation?”

Trans = transfer
Substantiation = substance

The bread and wine is completely changed to the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Yes, it still looks like bread and tastes like wine, but it is totally transformed.


151 posted on 08/20/2012 4:53:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

“His blood cleased me from ALL my sins and I am redeemed and will never perish because that is what Jesus said. Why do some Catholics not pay attention to what Jesus says elsewhere? Why do they reject that Jesus said we ARE saved by faith in Him?”

~ ~ ~

You’re stuck brother, believing the Protestant heresy of
faith alone and goes with Jesus covers all your sins by
his death on the cross. You’re justified. Neither one are
true. They sure are a lot easier, maybe why they are believed.

Come home boatbums, the Remnant is Catholic. Wait for your mom in Church at Mass. You will receive grace just being there, trust me and it would make your mother very happy. Do not receive Our Lord in the Eucharist until you come home and go to Confession. You can do it boatbums.

Our Lord wants all people to believe in His presence in
the Eucharist. Do not wait until you are shown in the
illumination of conscience. The Great Warning (Rev 6:15-17).

These protests, denials are ridiculous. Protestants have
faith in the Incarnation but want proof Our Lord is in
the Eucharist...actually, they would have to become
Roman Catholic, so holds them back.


152 posted on 08/20/2012 6:05:40 PM PDT by stpio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: stpio
boatbums, you can, go sit in the Church, kneel if you wish, do not partake of the Eucharist yet...when you take your mother to to Mass. Jesus will give you the grace, the desire to come home to the faith of your Baptism.

No offense, stpio, but there is no way I would ever need nor want to return to the Catholic Church. Jesus gives me all the grace I need to be saved, to keep me saved and to live through me to do the works God has prepared for me to do.

153 posted on 08/20/2012 6:22:40 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
the Catholic Church because it claims it ALONE has the means of granting eternal life

No, the RCC teaches that it is the sole authoritative CUSTODIAN of Christ's revelation. That it has authority to confect the Eucharist and minister to souls (ministerial priesthood) based on apostolic succession not found in nonCatholic denominations. The means of granting eternal life belong to God. None of us have salvation/eternal life thru anything except the sacrifice on the cross, which none of us deserved. The Church teaches it makes Christ present to us via the sacraments and by the priest standing in persona christi, in the place of Christ. We believe our Church mediates Christ's presence to the world, or perhaps radiates is a better word. Any merit or holiness comes from God's action in and through the Church, not from the host of sinners who inhabit it. We believe Jesus' actions in/thru the RCC are the ORDINARY means God uses but that he can and does work outside these means whenever he chooses.

Oops, I just saw what you wrote about Protestant errors costing souls. That didn't seem in line with Church teaching to me, so I looked it up. In numbers 818 and 819 of our Catechism, it states:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

The RCC also has historically stated that "outside of the Roman Catholic Church no one can be saved"

As I've said several times now, the RCC teaches it has the ORDINARY means of ministering to souls in Jesus' name. It doesn't teach that those through no fault of their own who do not/cannot access the Church are lost. God can and does work outside the ordinary. This we believe :)

STILL states that anyone who knows the Catholic Church is the "true" church and leaves it cannot be saved.

I addressed this above with Jn 13:20. Jesus sent the apostles on his behalf. Lk 10:16 tells us that people who reject those Jesus has sent reject both Jesus and the Father. Therefore, someone who is aware of Christ's true Church and leaves is rejecting those Christ sent, as well as Christ and the Father. Dont' most Christian religions teach that wilfull rejection of God generally leads to damnation?

Jesus' words about "his Eucharistic presence" is a product of the RCC's interpretation of what Jesus said and it was a doctrine that developed over centurie

As I noted above, Paul refers to Jesus as the paschal lamb, which every Jew understood was killed, had its blood sprinkled, and was eaten. And then there's the matter that Jesus commanded us to eat his flesh at his passover meal with the apostles. If you wish to reject his words, you are free to do so. But please don't misrepresent Catholic teaching. The Church has believed in the Real Presence from the beginning and that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant.

Well, there's much more I could say but alas dinner is burning on the stove. But I will close with a few quick thoughts.

Why do some Catholics not pay attention to what Jesus says elsewhere?

With all due respect, do you understand how bizarre your question is after how much criticism you've lobbed at us for actually believing the words of Jesus and his apostles?

Why do they reject that Jesus said we ARE saved by faith in Him?

We don't reject this. To be honest, you really seem to buy into a lot of antiCatholic myths. Did something happen that caused you to feel such animosity toward the RCC?

Why does the RCC insist that works must be added to our faith to be saved

Again, a strange question from someone who insists the Eucharist should be provable (a work of God) before it's believed (faith). We don't insist on works, but we do engage in concrete actions in attempt to live our faith and know/do what we believe is God's will for our lives. Can you give me a specific example of the type of "work" to which you refer?

Now, I have to rescue that chicken on the stove, ugh! Shoulda done Chik-fil-a instead :)

154 posted on 08/20/2012 6:40:56 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot ("A wise man's heart inclines him toward the right, but a fool's heart toward the left."--Eccl 10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

No offense to you BB, once Catholic, always Catholic. God’s
grace is working in you. How happy it would make your
dear mother besides.

A former atheist was wondering on the day of her daughter’s
Baptism, “how did I end up here?” She opened a drawer and there was her baptismal candle. She had been baptized Catholic.


155 posted on 08/20/2012 6:46:57 PM PDT by stpio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 153 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

An exCatholic, eh? Sad that you misrepresent RCC teaching here. Really sad :(


156 posted on 08/20/2012 6:53:58 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot ("A wise man's heart inclines him toward the right, but a fool's heart toward the left."--Eccl 10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 153 | View Replies]

To: PeevedPatriot

“As I noted above, Paul refers to Jesus as the paschal lamb, which every Jew understood was killed, had its blood sprinkled, and was eaten.”

~ ~ ~

Protestants believe Jesus is the New Covenant paschal lamb of God but they stop there. In the Old Covenant, the Passover Lamb was consumed. Much greater the New Covenant, yes? We consume God Himself! This is God’s plan. How humble of God.

When the Great Warning happens, knock yourself over, the
facts, the Truth we’ve been discussing in thread after
thread, you’ll say, oh my gosh!!!...it’s true.


157 posted on 08/20/2012 6:55:42 PM PDT by stpio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 154 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
If one ignores Ezekiel 18 and John 9, they can believe in original sin. If one ignores the list above starting with Matt 12:7, they can believe in sola fide.

And if they ignore Romans 13?

158 posted on 08/20/2012 7:12:49 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | View Replies]

To: PeevedPatriot
My Bible says that Scripture is useful but doesn't say it's the sole authority. In fact, it instructs me to follow apostolic tradition (2 Thes 2:15, 3:6; 1 Thes 2:13; 1 Cor 11:2; Phil 4:9). If all that's required is faith that scripture is accurate, and belief that Jesus is who He said He was, even the demons would be saved, wouldn't they? (James 2:19)

No, the demons cannot be saved because Jesus died for mankind. When Jesus says to believe on Him, he is talking about having faith in Him to deliver us. It is receiving Him as our Savior and accepting the gift of eternal life God gives to us by His grace.

The "church" is the called-out assembly of ALL those who follow and believe in Jesus Christ, it is a SPIRITUAL house (I Pet. 2:5). No organized church can be THE true church of Jesus Christ because the Body of Christ contains ONLY those who are the redeemed. A true Christian church would follow the teachings Jesus taught both while he was on earth and what he revealed to those who enscripturated both in the Bible. Just as the Old Testament prophets of the Lord wrote down their Divinely-inspired truths, so the Apostles and a few of their disciples wrote as the were "moved along by the Holy Spirit". The difference between us is that you say you believe your church is THE church Jesus established and I believe that there is not a singular, physical organization that has the corner on that title but that, just as in the first few centuries, there were local congregations that adhered in unison to the teachings of Jesus Christ as spelled out in Scripture - it was truly "universal". That is why there are MANY churches that qualify as of Christ because they contain genuine believers and teach what the Bible says. This spiritual organism designed to be the buttress and support of the truth - and the truth is what God has preserved in Holy Scripture.

So, though the Roman Catholic Church SAYS that it is THE, only true church of Jesus Christ, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, if it is a representative of the Body of Christ, then it MUST continue to teach what the Apostles taught. I disagree that there is such a thing as "Apostolic succession" - as defined as the apostolic authority given by Jesus to his selected twelve and this power being handed down through succession. Rather, I think it is an authority of teaching the truths as they are revealed in scripture. This is a good link that explains, I think in a very good way, what this "succession" was supposed to be all about The Rise of Rome in a Nutshell. In it we learn:

    First, let’s get introduced to a concept called “apostolic succession.” This is not simply a Roman Catholic concept. As we will see, in its uncorrupted and ideal state, apostolic succession is very important for the church, Roman Catholic or not. Notice the chart. It starts with Jesus. Jesus handed his teaching over to twelve Apostles. The Apostles were authorities in the early church. When they spoke, people listened. Why? Because they were trained by Christ. They were witnesses of his death, burial, and resurrection. They carried unique authority in the establishment of the church.

    So far, so good? Protestants and Catholics agree to this point. The next step is that the Apostles passed on their faith to others. Easy enough. The Apostles commissioned others to be leaders and authorities in the church. They handed over the faith to followers, like Timothy, who were approved in both their life and teaching. This created a succession of faith and teaching. They would often call this “laying on of hands.” With this “system” in place, the church maintained a safeguard against rogue expressions of the Christian faith. This is why Paul warned about commissioning people too hastily (1 Tim. 5:22).

    Again, to this point both Protestants and Catholics agree. We need to pass on the faith. We need to commission others that have been approved. There needs to be accountability. However, the departure comes when we begin to define not only what this succession of authority is, but what it does. Again, we agree that it is the duty of the church to pass on the faith once for all handed to the saints (Jude 3). We agree that the church is the “pillar of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). We also agree that all in this succession are saints and a part of the church. However, Catholics believe that in order for this succession to be valid, it has to be seen as primarily a succession in person. Protestants, on the other hand, believe that the primary issue involved it is a succession in teaching, doctrine, and practice. Therefore, Roman Catholics focus on the one to whom the succession is given, while Protestants focus on the teaching and doctrine itself, believing that the person who receives the succession is instrumental, not integral.

    Therefore, in essence, for the Roman Catholic, the persons in succession define the Gospel and make up the institutional church which presides over the Gospel. Hence, Catholics have the Pope and the magisterium of bishops (as represented by the fellows in the graph that follow the apostles). For the Protestant, on the other hand, it is the other way around. Only to the degree that the person is in succession with right teaching are they in apostolic succession. A hasty “laying on of hands” is possible, and can damage both the doctrine and reputation of the church.

    This is why Protestants are continually going back to the source – the Bible – for final authority (sola Scriptura) and why Roman Catholics are continually going to the institution for final authority.

    But there is one more way in which the chasm is further widened between Roman Catholics and Protestants with regard to the issue of apostolic succession. For the Roman Catholic, in order for this institution to have ultimate authority, it must possess the gift of infallibility. For the Protestant, the person upon whom the hands are laid (along with the institution, which is made up of a bunch of fellas upon whom hands have been laid) is fallible. Only the Apostles’ teaching is not. For the Protestant, apostolic succession is a safeguard to the Gospel, but it must be continually tested by the Scriptures.

I encourage you to read the whole article. Thank you, too, for the respectful dialog and I also look forward to eternity in heaven where we will know even as we are known.

159 posted on 08/20/2012 7:17:28 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies]

To: Natural Law
Can you or anyone define exactly who "the Jews" were that this Gospel is referring to? Were they simply residents of Judah, a few Hebrew speakers, or some other identifiable group? (If you can do it from Scripture its extra credit)

I'm always up for a challenge. ;o)

We know they were "Jews" simply because the passage in John 6 SAYS they are. Here:

At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” (John 6:41-42)

And here:

“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” (John 6:43-52)

And again:

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. (John 6:53-59)

Got that? He was speaking to Jews "while teaching in the synagogue" and referring to their ancestors in the wilderness. But, if you notice, it is NOT the "Jews" that turned back from following him, but his DISCIPLES. See:

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. (John 6:60-66)

Jesus was not concerned about the "Jews" like he was about his followers (disciples). There continued to be Jewish people following him around - especially the religious leaders looking to find fault so they could condemn him. That's why I do not think it was Jesus' words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood that so grossed them out they split - they had heard His parables and metaphors plenty of times - but when he told them "yet there are some of you who do not believe" and "no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them", they "turned back and no longer followed him". These were the ones who gave up following him - I think they were convicted in their hearts that their reasons for following Jesus were not sincere. It is after this that Jesus turned to Peter and the other eleven that stuck around and asked, “You do not want to leave too, do you?”, and Peter answers Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.” YET, Judas was STILL there, wasn't he? Judas stuck around, but we don't know his heart whether he had turned against Jesus already. John 6:70-71 says, "Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Does this pass your test? As for the ones who stayed, they were STILL ethnic Jews, that had not changed, but they WERE Christians - they had started to really believe that Jesus was who He said He was. Yet, we know that when the rubber met the road, even Peter - who was the first to pipe up at this scene in John 6 - denied he even knew who Jesus was and NONE of the others dared to show their faces, only John showed up under the cross. It was after the resurrection that, I think, they became TRUE believers. Blessed are we, Jesus said, that believe even we have not seen.

160 posted on 08/20/2012 7:57:42 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180 ... 201-220 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson