Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Even Jesus Can Have a Bad Day in the Pulpit – A Meditation on the Gospel for the 14th Sunday
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | July 8, 2012 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 07/08/2012 2:51:23 PM PDT by NYer

The gospel today portrays the Lord Jesus as preacher and prophet. But as we shall see, even the greatest preacher in the world (Jesus), can find his powerful and precious words falling lifeless on the rock hard surface that is the heart of many a soul. Yes, even his words can meet resistance and hostility, indifference and ridicule. Indeed, the gospel today shows forth the ruinous result of rejection.

We sometimes think that if Catholic priests were better preachers, all would be well. But that is only half the battle, for the Catholic faithful must have ears to hear and hearts that are open and eager to hear the truth. A well known preacher and fine Protestant teacher, William Barclay has this to say:

There can be no preaching in the wrong atmosphere. Our churches would be different places if congregations would only remember that they preach far more than half the sermon. In an atmosphere of expectancy, the poorest effort can catch fire. In an atmosphere of critical coldness or bland indifference the most spirit-packed utterance can fall lifeless to the earth. (Commentary on Mark, P. 140).

Yes, of this I am a witness. I have preached before congregations that were expectant and supportive, and watched my words catch fire. I have also preached in settings where “I couldn’t hear nobody pray!” And Oh the difference!

I have been blessed to serve most of my priesthood in African American settings and there is a deep appreciation that the preaching moment is a shared moment with shared responsibilities. The congregation does not consider itself a passive recipient of the word, but an active sharer in the proclamation.

There is an air of expectancy in the Church as the faithful gather and listen and begin to sing and pray. This air of expectancy is sometimes called “the hum.” And, during the reading of the Word and the sermon there are nods, hands may go up, even a stomp of the foot, and an acclamation or two pock the air: Amen!… Yes, Lord!…Well?!…Go on now!….Take your time!…Make it plain preacher!…You don’t mean to tell me! Ha!, My, my my!

And as a preacher too I can call for help: Are you praying with me Church?!….Somebody ought to say Amen!…..Come on Church!…..Can I get a witness?!……Kind quiet in here today….Amen?! Yes, together we craft the message as inspired by the Holy Spirit. And while it belongs to the priest to craft the content, it belongs to the congregation to affirm the truth and acknowledge the Spirit.

How precious and necessary is the preaching task. But the preaching task, as today’s gospel affirms, is more than the preacher. But before looking at the text itself, a few more insights about both preacher and congregation from Pope (Saint) Gregory the Great.

First on the obligation of the preacher and the solemnity of his task to preach:

Pastors who lack foresight hesitate to say openly what is right because they fear losing the favor of men. As the voice of truth tells us, such leaders are not zealous pastors who protect their flocks, rather they are like mercenaries who flee by taking refuge in silence when the wolf appears.

The Lord reproaches them through the prophet: They are dumb dogs that cannot bark. On another occasion he complains: You did not advance against the foe or set up a wall in front of the house of Israel, so that you might stand fast in battle on the day of the Lord. To advance against the foe involves a bold resistance to the powers of this world in defense of the flock. To stand fast in battle on the day of the Lord means to oppose the wicked enemy out of love for what is right.

When a pastor has been afraid to assert what is right, has he not turned his back and fled by remaining silent? Whereas if he intervenes on behalf of the flock, he sets up a wall against the enemy in front of the house of Israel….[But] they [who] are afraid to reproach men for their faults…thereby lull the evildoer with an empty promise of safety. Because [such preachers] fear reproach, they keep silent and fail to point out the sinner’s wrongdoing.

The word of reproach is a key that unlocks a door, because reproach reveals a fault of which the evildoer is himself often unaware. That is why Paul says of the bishop: He must be able to encourage men in sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For the same reason God tells us through Malachi: The lips of the priest are to preserve knowledge, and men shall look to him for the law, for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts. Finally, that is also the reason why the Lord warns us through Isaiah: Cry out and be not still; raise your voice in a trumpet call.

Anyone ordained a priest undertakes the task of preaching, so that with a loud cry he may go on ahead of the terrible judge who follows. If, then, a priest does not know how to preach, what kind of cry can such a dumb herald utter? It was to bring this home that the Holy Spirit descended in the form of tongues on the first pastors, for he causes those whom he has filled, to speak out spontaneously. [Gregory the Great, Pastoral Guide].

Second on the reason for poor preaching:

Beloved brothers, consider what has been said: Pray the Lord of the harvest to send labourers into his harvest. Pray for us so that we may have the strength to work on your behalf, that our tongue may not grow weary of exhortation, and that after we have accepted the office of preaching, our silence may not condemn us before the just judge.

For frequently the preacher’s tongue is bound fast on account of his own wickedness; while on the other hand it sometimes happens that because of the people’s sins, the word of preaching is withdrawn from those who preside over the assembly.

With reference to the wickedness of the preacher, the psalmist says: But God asks the sinner: Why do you recite my commandments? And with reference to the latter, the Lord tells Ezekiel: I will make your tongue cleave to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be dumb and unable to reprove them, for they are a rebellious house. He clearly means this: the word of preaching will be taken away from you because as long as this people irritates me by their deeds, they are unworthy to hear the exhortation of truth.

It is not easy to know for whose sinfulness the preacher’s word is withheld, but it is indisputable that the shepherd’s silence while often injurious to himself will always harm his flock. (Ibid.)

Note well then, the shared task and responsibility of the preacher and the people. And let these texts serve as a worthy back ground to what is now to come in this gospel which we can see in three stages:

I. Real Rejoicing - The text says, Jesus departed from there and came to his native place, accompanied by his disciples. When the sabbath came he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished. They said, “Where did this man get all this? What kind of wisdom has been given him? What mighty deeds are wrought by his hands!

Thus the initial reaction of Jesus’ hometown is positive. They are filled with amazement and joy. And the text sets forth two sources of their joy:

1. His Wise Words - and many who heard him were astonished. They said, “Where did this man get all this? What kind of wisdom has been given him? Yes, what a blessing it must have been to hear Jesus preach. Could Jesus preach! Scripture says of his preaching:

And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. (Mat 7:28).
Sent to arrest him the temple guard returned empty handed saying: No one ever spoke like that man (Jn 7:46)
And all spoke well of him, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth; (Luke 4:22)
And the common people heard him gladly. (Mark 12:37)

2.His Wonderful works – They also say: What mighty deeds are wrought by his hands! Yes, Jesus had worked many miracles up to this point:

Cast out demons
Turned water to wine
Raised up paralytics
Cured the man with a withered hand
Cast out blindness
Healed deafness
Multiplied loaves and fishes
Calmed storms
Raised up Jairus’ daughter from the dead

And so we see that the initial reaction to Jesus preaching is good. Their remarks and rejoicing are a sign that the Spirit is working and prompting them to belief.

Yet as we shall see, things are about to turn sour. For it remains a sad but prevailing truth that the word of God can fall on the rocky soil of some hearts where it springs up but soon withers because the soil is rocky and shallow. Or the Word of the Lord can sown on the paths of some hearts where the birds of the sky come and carry it off. Or the Word of the Lord can call on divided hearts and where the thorns of worldliness and anxieties of the world choke it off. And yes, sometimes it falls on good soil where it yields thirty, or sixty, or a hundred fold. (cf Matt 13:1-9). Sadly things are heading south.

II. Rude Rejection - The text says [But some began to say] Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

Notice how sudden their change is. There is an old spiritual that says: Some go to church for to sing and shout, before six months theys all turned out!

They harden their hearts – Yes, the tide mysteriously and suddenly turns against Jesus. Sin has set in and hearts have hardened and the joy is jettisoned. Though the Holy Spirit prompts them to faith and to call Jesus Lord, they harden their hearts. It is a grim and tragic sin.

They also exhibit a kind of prejudice or unjust discrimination, dismissing him as a mere carpenter and a home boy. It is an odd kind of thing that the poor and oppressed sometimes take up the voice of the oppressor. And thus, these simple people of a small little town of only 300, take up the voice of the Jerusalemites who regarded Galileans as “poor back-woods clowns” and as unlettered people. Yes, his own townsfolk take up the voice of the oppressor and say to Jesus, in effect, “Stay in your place. You have no business being smart, talented, wise or great. You’re just one of us and should amount to nothing.” It is the same sort of tragic rebuke that sometimes takes place among minority students who excel in school. Some of their fellow minority students accuse them of “going white.” Tragic and sick. And thus for Jesus, they ignore his actual words and his works and focus only on appearances and background.

They also exhibit the sin of envy. Envy is sadness or anger at the goodness or excellence of another person because we take it to lessen our own excellence. The text says here, And they took offense at him. St. Augustine called envy THE diabolical sin. This is because it seeks not to posses the good of another, (like jealousy does), but it seeks to destroy what is good in others so that the destroyer can look better.

The result of these sins was that Nazareth was NOT a place where excellence was known, even among its own! Indeed, John 1:46 records Nathanael as saying of Nazareth “Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?” It would seem even the townsfolk of that place would agree” (But Philip who surrendered his prejudice said to Nathanael, “Come and see.”).

But an even more awful result of these sins ensues as we next see.

III. Ruinous Result - The text says, Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his native place and among his own kin and in his own house.” SO HE WAS NOT ABLE to perform any mighty deed there, apart from curing a few sick people by laying hands on them. He was amazed at their lack of faith.

So as we see, they judge him to be nothing, so they get nothing. They have blocked their blessings.

Jesus says, He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward (Mat 10:41). But they will get nothing. When we banish or discredit God, we should not expect to see many and mighty works. These things come only from faith.

Miracles are the result of faith not the cause of it. Thus the text says, So [Jesus] was NOT ABLE to perform any mighty deed there…He was amazed at their lack of faith.

There are some things even God can’t do not because he has no power but because he respects our choices. Pay attention. The Lord is offering us salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven. And either we reach out to take it or we don’t. But the choice is ours. If we take it, He’ll go to work. But if we refuse, he who respects our freedom will “not be able” to perform any mighty deeds.

And what a ruinous result for Nazareth and all who reject the prophetic utterances of our Lord and His saving help. Scripture says:

I am the LORD your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt. Open your mouth wide, and I will fill it. “But my people did not listen to my voice; Israel would have none of me. 12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels. O that my people would listen to me, that Israel would walk in my ways! I would soon subdue their enemies, and turn my hand against their foes. Those who hate the LORD would cringe toward him, and their fate would last for ever. I would feed you with the finest of the wheat, and with honey from the rock I would satisfy you.” (Psalm 81:10-16)

Either we will accept God’s word and yield to its healing and saving power or we can expect little or nothing but ultimate ruin. It is as though you or I were in a raging stream heading soon over the falls to our death. And then a hand is stretched out to save us, the hand of Jesus, but mysteriously we reject that hand and ridicule its power. And the ruinous result of our hideous and foolish rejection is only one thing: our death. The text says, He was amazed at their lack of faith.

Pay attention, God is preaching a word to you every Sunday, every day. Will you heed and be healed, receive and be rescued, or reject and be ruined. Will the Lord be able to do mighty deeds for you? Or will he be amazed at your lack of faith? The choice is yours, it is all yours.

Even Jesus can have a bad day in the pulpit. Make sure you’re not the reason why.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-89 last
To: OneWingedShark
"Why should I entertain your thoughts on theology when they are not philosophically sound? (Any theology that is philosophically unsound is a theology not worth looking at, IMO, precisely because it would be the equivalent of discussing a system of physics where the math behind it allows true and false to be equal."

All people begin philosophically with a priori beliefs that are unproven, yet taken to be true. The old logical positivism of 1930s has long been proven untrue. The Scriptures tell us all kinds of things which to the modern mind are untenable: God became a man? That man intentionally arrranged things to get killed by his own countrymen? That death served as a sacrifice for some of them? That Man raised Himself from the dead to prove His control of death? Yet, these are either true, or our faith is misplaced.

Many biblical truths are not "logical" to the mind God has left in the grip of the world. The question is...ought we conform to the Bible or do we attempt to make the Bible conform to us? The Scriptures tell us that your mind is planning (choosing, constructing) your ways...but the Lord is directing (ordaining each step) how that occurs. Proverbs 16:9. 20:24 That you are unable to grasp this, I can only assume God has ordained.

81 posted on 07/14/2012 8:38:14 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88
The question is...ought we conform to the Bible or do we attempt to make the Bible conform to us? The Scriptures tell us that your mind is planning (choosing, constructing) your ways...but the Lord is directing (ordaining each step) how that occurs.

And have you never heard of the story of Death in Damascus?

Consider the story of the man who met Death in Damascus. Death looked surprised, but then recovered his ghastly composure and said, ‘I AM COMING FOR YOU TOMORROW’. The terrified man that night bought a camel and rode to Aleppo. The next day, Death knocked on the door of the room where he was hiding, and said ‘I HAVE COME FOR YOU’.

‘But I thought you would be looking for me in Damascus’, said the man.

‘NOT AT ALL’, said Death ‘THAT IS WHY I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE YOU YESTERDAY. I KNEW THAT TODAY I WAS TO FIND YOU IN ALEPPO’.

To say that we have no free will because God, unbounded by time and space, knows what is to happen is... well, ridiculous. That is akin to saying that me vs a chess-master [who knows me well] proves I have no free will because he can accurately predict my moves four, six, eight [etc] moves in the future... and he's still only human and not unbounded by time as God is, nor as intelligent as God, nor as wise, nor as Good.

What you do not accept is that man is able to choose, and has always been able to choose, freely.
Do you see the Lord's Prayer and think: "Oh, everything is already set in stone... I don't need to pray!"
Of course not! That's contrary to virtually all the bible says on prayer, but there is something there in the Lord's Prayer that acknowledges man's free choice:
"Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive those that trespass against us."

Or do you think that the parable of the evil servant, who being pardoned for a great sum and went to his fellow-man and roughly demanded a pittance was all predestined? Was he called evil and punished for what he willed to do, and did? Or because God is some capricious being that made the guy dance for some sick twisted pleasure?

Just because God may have good planned for us does not mean that we can't take a shit on him. What the hell do you think the Parable of the Prodigal Son is about? Do you think that the father, obviously representing God, wanted his son to go out and squander his wealth, falling into a miserable condition?

Jesus said "if you who are evil know to give good things to your children, how much moreso will God not give good to those who ask?" (from memory.)
Your ideology is precisely the opposite: God makes people who have no choice but to sin and then punishes them for something that they literally cannot have changed, cannot have done differently; how then can God, being Good, do this?

Without free will God is nothing more than a puppet-master remote-controlling mankind and arbitrarily destroying some and saving others; grace is not a gift, but an excuse; and there is no need to be mindful of anything the bible says because all is predestined anyway. If God is good, why would he cause evil? (This is quite different than allowing evil.)

82 posted on 07/14/2012 1:31:09 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: OneWingedShark
"That is akin to saying that me vs a chess-master [who knows me well] proves I have no free will because he can accurately predict my moves four, six, eight [etc] moves in the future... and he's still only human and not unbounded by time as God is, nor as intelligent as God, nor as wise, nor as Good."

Quite a difference between your chess-master becoming well acquainted with you in order to guess your moves accurately and God. You have overlooked the passages which tell you that God is executing your moves.

Do you see the Lord's Prayer and think: "Oh, everything is already set in stone... I don't need to pray!" Of course not! That's contrary to virtually all the bible says on prayer, but there is something there in the Lord's Prayer that acknowledges man's free choice: "Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive those that trespass against us."

You may wish to read the rest of the story in order to put this in its context. The so-called Lord's Prayer is within the so-called Sermon on the mount. If you would keep reading you would find that Jesus is teaching the impossible requirements of the Mosaic Law to Jews. You are not yet in the audience, my FRiend. You are reading someone else's mail. Even the so-called Golden Rule...is the Law of Moses. Check Matt. 7:12

What I said earlier about the motivation for free will being a "reward system" gospel is becoming more clear with each of your posts.

"Without free will God is nothing more than a puppet-master remote-controlling mankind and arbitrarily destroying some and saving others; grace is not a gift, but an excuse; and there is no need to be mindful of anything the bible says because all is predestined anyway. If God is good, why would he cause evil? (This is quite different than allowing evil.)"

Again, notice, no Scriptures...just your philosophy and "logic". But, you continue to ignore passages such as:

Amos 3:6, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"

Daniel 4:35, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will IN the host of Heaven and the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast thou done?'"

And, this message is everywhere in His Word.

83 posted on 07/16/2012 9:09:50 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88
Quite a difference between your chess-master becoming well acquainted with you in order to guess your moves accurately and God.

I even acknowledged such. But you in your haste to call me wrong missed the point.

Quite a difference between your chess-master becoming well acquainted with you in order to guess your moves accurately and God. You have overlooked the passages which tell you that God is executing your moves.

...God is executing my moves? Wow. Do you realize what you've said?
You've said, quite literally, that God is performing/doing my actions.
But then your posts make this quite clear that is what you mean.

Applying that sentiment makes God, quite monstrous, not loving or Just or Good.
Turn to Genesis Chapter 4, We have God rejecting Cain's offering, and then warning Cain about sin that "lieth at the door", then Cain murders Abel.

Now, according to your statements, not only does God reject Cain's offering, but He also kills Abel [via Cain, whose actions God executes] and then punishes Cain for it. You have a lot of gall to claim that as being the sort of character of a Righteous God.

You may wish to read the rest of the story in order to put this in its context. The so-called Lord's Prayer is within the so-called Sermon on the mount.

Nope. You are wrong (at least partially); Jesus replied with the Lord's Prayer after his disciples asked him to teach them to pray. Now if that is the correct way to pray, then obviously if the subject were to come up later it be answered in the same manner.

He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples." And he said to them, "When you pray, say:

‘Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread; and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation"’ [Luke 11:1-4].

Again, notice, no Scriptures...just your philosophy and "logic".

*shrug* -- When I give you scripture you either ignore it or say that I am utterly wrong; why should I then waste God's word on you?
(Oh, come on -- that one's even a give me! [2 Timothy 3:16])

But, you continue to ignore passages such as:
Amos 3:6, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"

I have not said that God is not in control of things/events. You unceasingly conflate sovereignty and free-will's exclusion.

Daniel 4:35, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will IN the host of Heaven and the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast thou done?'"

And who can say to God "What have you done?"

And, this message is everywhere in His Word

So is the concept of accountability; which if free-will does not exist as you posit, is rubbish:
Matthew 12:36 -- But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Romans 14:12 -- So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Deuteronomy 24:16 -- Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
All of these sound really stupid if it is God executing the actions that these are punished for.

84 posted on 07/19/2012 7:13:14 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: OneWingedShark
"So is the concept of accountability; which if free-will does not exist as you posit, is rubbish:"

Herein lies the central error in your claim of free will.

"Do you realize what you've said?"

Yes, I believe so. And, I believe I have identified what you cannot accept. If Solomon is correct, "Man plans his ways, but God directs his steps."

85 posted on 07/20/2012 8:46:57 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88
>>"Do you realize what you've said?"
>
>Yes, I believe so. And, I believe I have identified what you cannot accept. If Solomon is correct, "Man plans his ways, but God directs his steps."

No, that is not what you said. What you said is that God executes [which is does] the actions.

86 posted on 07/20/2012 10:14:12 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: OneWingedShark
Epicurus began the argument that the existence of evil should silence the world about a "good God". Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but is unwilling. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but is unwilling, he is wicked.

Your view of "free will" gave rise to this claim. The Scriptural answer is God is both the author of evil, and its controller/user to establish His glory. He is also, perfectly Holy, by His definition. That you cannot see how this is possible only implies a limitation on your part.

87 posted on 07/20/2012 10:45:14 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88
Epicurus began the argument that the existence of evil should silence the world about a "good God". Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but is unwilling. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but is unwilling, he is wicked.

I have never made this claim; do not attribute this argument to me. There is another theological answer to this argument, again which I have not made:
God may be, and I believe is, in the process of abolishing evil. I believe that it is because He respects His own gift to mankind, the gift of being made in His own image (which I believe includes free will) that He does not simply terminate our ability to do evil. Also, with the absence of evil comes the absence of the Christian's goal of being like Christ: one cannot overcome evil with good if there is no evil to overcome.

Your view of "free will" gave rise to this claim.

So, should I assume that your view of predestination, that is to the exclusion of free-will, makes you responsible or accountable for the similar Islamic thought? Inshallah.

Ridiculous.

The Scriptural answer is God is both the author of evil, and its controller/user to establish His glory. He is also, perfectly Holy, by His definition.

If He is perfectly Holy, then why should He be the author of evil? If he is the author of evil, then evil comes from God. That is all to say that God does the wickedness; reconcile with these:
“Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.” Job 34:10
“He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.” Deuteronomy 32:4
“Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.” 2 Chronicles 19:7
“For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.” Psalms 5:4

Indeed, I believe that what we see now is God's active work in the world through His people, that is the church:
“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” Numbers 23:19

But men, being imperfect, will be overcome [by evil] and God will Himself step in and vanquish evil; that is the whole summary of John's Revelation.

That you cannot see how this is possible only implies a limitation on your part.

I never claimed to be unlimited; even in full free will there are limits: I cannot simply fly away because I will it, but that does not make my will any less free. (The difference is much the same as that between omnipotent and omniscient: one is to be able to bring about all one's purposes, the other is to know all that is. Likewise being unable to alter physics only makes me impotent in that regard, it does nothing to limit my will, what I wish to cause-to-happen/do.)

As your attribution of claims & arguments I have not made to me, followed by an implicit accountability-demand, show: you are unwilling to listen to what I am actually saying.

88 posted on 07/20/2012 12:16:44 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: OneWingedShark
The passages you quote are very good. And, they do set up a proper mental picture that God is not to be blamed for the evil performed in the world. I certainly agree with this.

Earlier, however, you claimed that for accountability to exist, there must be free will. That is, I cannot be held responsible for something that did not fully and only arise from me. This is simply not true. And Paul realized this would be argued whenever he presented the real Gospel. "How then can He still find fault?; for who can resist His will?" And, Paul's answer is my answer, "Who are you to contend with God?"

So, our guilt, arising from our evil, originated not because we are "free from God to behave/think as we will" (the required definition of free will), but because He wrote this into our story. And, we are held guilty for it, and we love it (because He gave us a nature to love it and causes us to act/think that way). And, we will certainly be blamed for it (unless we are forgiven in Christ).

Lam. 3:37,38, "...Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"

Lam. 2:6, "...The Lord has caused to be forgotten the appointed feast and sabbath in Zion,..."

This is everywhere in the Scriptures, but most wish to gloss over it...by God's design and execution. He is the One managing this evil into existence, managing its operation, and managing its results...yet remains guiltless. That is why we needn't fear the actions of the evil. God is maneuvering them, as He is us. If it causes us pain, so be it.

That is the message of the Scriptures and subsumes impressions that we are "free" (or anyone else is "free") or requests for us to choose (as if that choice is not being conditioned). Every choice, every thought, every behavior is carefully scripted for God's glory. There is not a maverick molecule in creation.

Otherwise, we have a pagan god rushing about trying to compensate, to react, to make up, to clean up, to counteract, to fix the problems created by all the "free" beings running loose. That may be Greek mythology but it is not the picture painted by the Bible.

89 posted on 07/20/2012 1:39:02 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-89 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson