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To: OneWingedShark
"Why should I entertain your thoughts on theology when they are not philosophically sound? (Any theology that is philosophically unsound is a theology not worth looking at, IMO, precisely because it would be the equivalent of discussing a system of physics where the math behind it allows true and false to be equal."

All people begin philosophically with a priori beliefs that are unproven, yet taken to be true. The old logical positivism of 1930s has long been proven untrue. The Scriptures tell us all kinds of things which to the modern mind are untenable: God became a man? That man intentionally arrranged things to get killed by his own countrymen? That death served as a sacrifice for some of them? That Man raised Himself from the dead to prove His control of death? Yet, these are either true, or our faith is misplaced.

Many biblical truths are not "logical" to the mind God has left in the grip of the world. The question is...ought we conform to the Bible or do we attempt to make the Bible conform to us? The Scriptures tell us that your mind is planning (choosing, constructing) your ways...but the Lord is directing (ordaining each step) how that occurs. Proverbs 16:9. 20:24 That you are unable to grasp this, I can only assume God has ordained.

81 posted on 07/14/2012 8:38:14 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
The question is...ought we conform to the Bible or do we attempt to make the Bible conform to us? The Scriptures tell us that your mind is planning (choosing, constructing) your ways...but the Lord is directing (ordaining each step) how that occurs.

And have you never heard of the story of Death in Damascus?

Consider the story of the man who met Death in Damascus. Death looked surprised, but then recovered his ghastly composure and said, ‘I AM COMING FOR YOU TOMORROW’. The terrified man that night bought a camel and rode to Aleppo. The next day, Death knocked on the door of the room where he was hiding, and said ‘I HAVE COME FOR YOU’.

‘But I thought you would be looking for me in Damascus’, said the man.

‘NOT AT ALL’, said Death ‘THAT IS WHY I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE YOU YESTERDAY. I KNEW THAT TODAY I WAS TO FIND YOU IN ALEPPO’.

To say that we have no free will because God, unbounded by time and space, knows what is to happen is... well, ridiculous. That is akin to saying that me vs a chess-master [who knows me well] proves I have no free will because he can accurately predict my moves four, six, eight [etc] moves in the future... and he's still only human and not unbounded by time as God is, nor as intelligent as God, nor as wise, nor as Good.

What you do not accept is that man is able to choose, and has always been able to choose, freely.
Do you see the Lord's Prayer and think: "Oh, everything is already set in stone... I don't need to pray!"
Of course not! That's contrary to virtually all the bible says on prayer, but there is something there in the Lord's Prayer that acknowledges man's free choice:
"Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive those that trespass against us."

Or do you think that the parable of the evil servant, who being pardoned for a great sum and went to his fellow-man and roughly demanded a pittance was all predestined? Was he called evil and punished for what he willed to do, and did? Or because God is some capricious being that made the guy dance for some sick twisted pleasure?

Just because God may have good planned for us does not mean that we can't take a shit on him. What the hell do you think the Parable of the Prodigal Son is about? Do you think that the father, obviously representing God, wanted his son to go out and squander his wealth, falling into a miserable condition?

Jesus said "if you who are evil know to give good things to your children, how much moreso will God not give good to those who ask?" (from memory.)
Your ideology is precisely the opposite: God makes people who have no choice but to sin and then punishes them for something that they literally cannot have changed, cannot have done differently; how then can God, being Good, do this?

Without free will God is nothing more than a puppet-master remote-controlling mankind and arbitrarily destroying some and saving others; grace is not a gift, but an excuse; and there is no need to be mindful of anything the bible says because all is predestined anyway. If God is good, why would he cause evil? (This is quite different than allowing evil.)

82 posted on 07/14/2012 1:31:09 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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