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To: Dutchboy88
Epicurus began the argument that the existence of evil should silence the world about a "good God". Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but is unwilling. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but is unwilling, he is wicked.

I have never made this claim; do not attribute this argument to me. There is another theological answer to this argument, again which I have not made:
God may be, and I believe is, in the process of abolishing evil. I believe that it is because He respects His own gift to mankind, the gift of being made in His own image (which I believe includes free will) that He does not simply terminate our ability to do evil. Also, with the absence of evil comes the absence of the Christian's goal of being like Christ: one cannot overcome evil with good if there is no evil to overcome.

Your view of "free will" gave rise to this claim.

So, should I assume that your view of predestination, that is to the exclusion of free-will, makes you responsible or accountable for the similar Islamic thought? Inshallah.

Ridiculous.

The Scriptural answer is God is both the author of evil, and its controller/user to establish His glory. He is also, perfectly Holy, by His definition.

If He is perfectly Holy, then why should He be the author of evil? If he is the author of evil, then evil comes from God. That is all to say that God does the wickedness; reconcile with these:
“Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.” Job 34:10
“He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.” Deuteronomy 32:4
“Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.” 2 Chronicles 19:7
“For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.” Psalms 5:4

Indeed, I believe that what we see now is God's active work in the world through His people, that is the church:
“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” Numbers 23:19

But men, being imperfect, will be overcome [by evil] and God will Himself step in and vanquish evil; that is the whole summary of John's Revelation.

That you cannot see how this is possible only implies a limitation on your part.

I never claimed to be unlimited; even in full free will there are limits: I cannot simply fly away because I will it, but that does not make my will any less free. (The difference is much the same as that between omnipotent and omniscient: one is to be able to bring about all one's purposes, the other is to know all that is. Likewise being unable to alter physics only makes me impotent in that regard, it does nothing to limit my will, what I wish to cause-to-happen/do.)

As your attribution of claims & arguments I have not made to me, followed by an implicit accountability-demand, show: you are unwilling to listen to what I am actually saying.

88 posted on 07/20/2012 12:16:44 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark
The passages you quote are very good. And, they do set up a proper mental picture that God is not to be blamed for the evil performed in the world. I certainly agree with this.

Earlier, however, you claimed that for accountability to exist, there must be free will. That is, I cannot be held responsible for something that did not fully and only arise from me. This is simply not true. And Paul realized this would be argued whenever he presented the real Gospel. "How then can He still find fault?; for who can resist His will?" And, Paul's answer is my answer, "Who are you to contend with God?"

So, our guilt, arising from our evil, originated not because we are "free from God to behave/think as we will" (the required definition of free will), but because He wrote this into our story. And, we are held guilty for it, and we love it (because He gave us a nature to love it and causes us to act/think that way). And, we will certainly be blamed for it (unless we are forgiven in Christ).

Lam. 3:37,38, "...Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"

Lam. 2:6, "...The Lord has caused to be forgotten the appointed feast and sabbath in Zion,..."

This is everywhere in the Scriptures, but most wish to gloss over it...by God's design and execution. He is the One managing this evil into existence, managing its operation, and managing its results...yet remains guiltless. That is why we needn't fear the actions of the evil. God is maneuvering them, as He is us. If it causes us pain, so be it.

That is the message of the Scriptures and subsumes impressions that we are "free" (or anyone else is "free") or requests for us to choose (as if that choice is not being conditioned). Every choice, every thought, every behavior is carefully scripted for God's glory. There is not a maverick molecule in creation.

Otherwise, we have a pagan god rushing about trying to compensate, to react, to make up, to clean up, to counteract, to fix the problems created by all the "free" beings running loose. That may be Greek mythology but it is not the picture painted by the Bible.

89 posted on 07/20/2012 1:39:02 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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