Posted on 07/08/2012 2:51:23 PM PDT by NYer
All people begin philosophically with a priori beliefs that are unproven, yet taken to be true. The old logical positivism of 1930s has long been proven untrue. The Scriptures tell us all kinds of things which to the modern mind are untenable: God became a man? That man intentionally arrranged things to get killed by his own countrymen? That death served as a sacrifice for some of them? That Man raised Himself from the dead to prove His control of death? Yet, these are either true, or our faith is misplaced.
Many biblical truths are not "logical" to the mind God has left in the grip of the world. The question is...ought we conform to the Bible or do we attempt to make the Bible conform to us? The Scriptures tell us that your mind is planning (choosing, constructing) your ways...but the Lord is directing (ordaining each step) how that occurs. Proverbs 16:9. 20:24 That you are unable to grasp this, I can only assume God has ordained.
And have you never heard of the story of Death in Damascus?
Consider the story of the man who met Death in Damascus. Death looked surprised, but then recovered his ghastly composure and said, ‘I AM COMING FOR YOU TOMORROW’. The terrified man that night bought a camel and rode to Aleppo. The next day, Death knocked on the door of the room where he was hiding, and said ‘I HAVE COME FOR YOU’.‘But I thought you would be looking for me in Damascus’, said the man.
‘NOT AT ALL’, said Death ‘THAT IS WHY I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE YOU YESTERDAY. I KNEW THAT TODAY I WAS TO FIND YOU IN ALEPPO’.
To say that we have no free will because God, unbounded by time and space, knows what is to happen is... well, ridiculous. That is akin to saying that me vs a chess-master [who knows me well] proves I have no free will because he can accurately predict my moves four, six, eight [etc] moves in the future... and he's still only human and not unbounded by time as God is, nor as intelligent as God, nor as wise, nor as Good.
What you do not accept is that man is able to choose, and has always been able to choose, freely.
Do you see the Lord's Prayer and think: "Oh, everything is already set in stone... I don't need to pray!"
Of course not! That's contrary to virtually all the bible says on prayer, but there is something there in the Lord's Prayer that acknowledges man's free choice:
"Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive those that trespass against us."
Or do you think that the parable of the evil servant, who being pardoned for a great sum and went to his fellow-man and roughly demanded a pittance was all predestined? Was he called evil and punished for what he willed to do, and did? Or because God is some capricious being that made the guy dance for some sick twisted pleasure?
Just because God may have good planned for us does not mean that we can't take a shit on him. What the hell do you think the Parable of the Prodigal Son is about? Do you think that the father, obviously representing God, wanted his son to go out and squander his wealth, falling into a miserable condition?
Jesus said "if you who are evil know to give good things to your children, how much moreso will God not give good to those who ask?" (from memory.)
Your ideology is precisely the opposite: God makes people who have no choice but to sin and then punishes them for something that they literally cannot have changed, cannot have done differently; how then can God, being Good, do this?
Without free will God is nothing more than a puppet-master remote-controlling mankind and arbitrarily destroying some and saving others; grace is not a gift, but an excuse; and there is no need to be mindful of anything the bible says because all is predestined anyway. If God is good, why would he cause evil? (This is quite different than allowing evil.)
Quite a difference between your chess-master becoming well acquainted with you in order to guess your moves accurately and God. You have overlooked the passages which tell you that God is executing your moves.
Do you see the Lord's Prayer and think: "Oh, everything is already set in stone... I don't need to pray!" Of course not! That's contrary to virtually all the bible says on prayer, but there is something there in the Lord's Prayer that acknowledges man's free choice: "Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive those that trespass against us."
You may wish to read the rest of the story in order to put this in its context. The so-called Lord's Prayer is within the so-called Sermon on the mount. If you would keep reading you would find that Jesus is teaching the impossible requirements of the Mosaic Law to Jews. You are not yet in the audience, my FRiend. You are reading someone else's mail. Even the so-called Golden Rule...is the Law of Moses. Check Matt. 7:12
What I said earlier about the motivation for free will being a "reward system" gospel is becoming more clear with each of your posts.
"Without free will God is nothing more than a puppet-master remote-controlling mankind and arbitrarily destroying some and saving others; grace is not a gift, but an excuse; and there is no need to be mindful of anything the bible says because all is predestined anyway. If God is good, why would he cause evil? (This is quite different than allowing evil.)"
Again, notice, no Scriptures...just your philosophy and "logic". But, you continue to ignore passages such as:
Amos 3:6, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"
Daniel 4:35, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will IN the host of Heaven and the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast thou done?'"
And, this message is everywhere in His Word.
I even acknowledged such. But you in your haste to call me wrong missed the point.
Quite a difference between your chess-master becoming well acquainted with you in order to guess your moves accurately and God. You have overlooked the passages which tell you that God is executing your moves.
...God is executing my moves? Wow. Do you realize what you've said?
You've said, quite literally, that God is performing/doing my actions.
But then your posts make this quite clear that is what you mean.
Applying that sentiment makes God, quite monstrous, not loving or Just or Good.
Turn to Genesis Chapter 4, We have God rejecting Cain's offering, and then warning Cain about sin that "lieth at the door", then Cain murders Abel.
Now, according to your statements, not only does God reject Cain's offering, but He also kills Abel [via Cain, whose actions God executes] and then punishes Cain for it. You have a lot of gall to claim that as being the sort of character of a Righteous God.
You may wish to read the rest of the story in order to put this in its context. The so-called Lord's Prayer is within the so-called Sermon on the mount.
Nope. You are wrong (at least partially); Jesus replied with the Lord's Prayer after his disciples asked him to teach them to pray. Now if that is the correct way to pray, then obviously if the subject were to come up later it be answered in the same manner.
He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples." And he said to them, "When you pray, say:‘Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread; and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation"’ [Luke 11:1-4].
Again, notice, no Scriptures...just your philosophy and "logic".
*shrug* -- When I give you scripture you either ignore it or say that I am utterly wrong; why should I then waste God's word on you?
(Oh, come on -- that one's even a give me! [2 Timothy 3:16])
But, you continue to ignore passages such as:
Amos 3:6, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"
I have not said that God is not in control of things/events. You unceasingly conflate sovereignty and free-will's exclusion.
Daniel 4:35, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will IN the host of Heaven and the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast thou done?'"
And who can say to God "What have you done?"
And, this message is everywhere in His Word
So is the concept of accountability; which if free-will does not exist as you posit, is rubbish:
Matthew 12:36 -- But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Romans 14:12 -- So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Deuteronomy 24:16 -- Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
All of these sound really stupid if it is God executing the actions that these are punished for.
Herein lies the central error in your claim of free will.
"Do you realize what you've said?"
Yes, I believe so. And, I believe I have identified what you cannot accept. If Solomon is correct, "Man plans his ways, but God directs his steps."
No, that is not what you said. What you said is that God executes [which is does] the actions.
Your view of "free will" gave rise to this claim. The Scriptural answer is God is both the author of evil, and its controller/user to establish His glory. He is also, perfectly Holy, by His definition. That you cannot see how this is possible only implies a limitation on your part.
I have never made this claim; do not attribute this argument to me. There is another theological answer to this argument, again which I have not made:
God may be, and I believe is, in the process of abolishing evil. I believe that it is because He respects His own gift to mankind, the gift of being made in His own image (which I believe includes free will) that He does not simply terminate our ability to do evil. Also, with the absence of evil comes the absence of the Christian's goal of being like Christ: one cannot overcome evil with good if there is no evil to overcome.
Your view of "free will" gave rise to this claim.
So, should I assume that your view of predestination, that is to the exclusion of free-will, makes you responsible or accountable for the similar Islamic thought? Inshallah.
Ridiculous.
The Scriptural answer is God is both the author of evil, and its controller/user to establish His glory. He is also, perfectly Holy, by His definition.
If He is perfectly Holy, then why should He be the author of evil? If he is the author of evil, then evil comes from God. That is all to say that God does the wickedness; reconcile with these:
“Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.” Job 34:10
“He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.” Deuteronomy 32:4
“Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.” 2 Chronicles 19:7
“For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.” Psalms 5:4
Indeed, I believe that what we see now is God's active work in the world through His people, that is the church:
“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” Numbers 23:19
But men, being imperfect, will be overcome [by evil] and God will Himself step in and vanquish evil; that is the whole summary of John's Revelation.
That you cannot see how this is possible only implies a limitation on your part.
I never claimed to be unlimited; even in full free will there are limits: I cannot simply fly away because I will it, but that does not make my will any less free. (The difference is much the same as that between omnipotent and omniscient: one is to be able to bring about all one's purposes, the other is to know all that is. Likewise being unable to alter physics only makes me impotent in that regard, it does nothing to limit my will, what I wish to cause-to-happen/do.)
As your attribution of claims & arguments I have not made to me, followed by an implicit accountability-demand, show: you are unwilling to listen to what I am actually saying.
Earlier, however, you claimed that for accountability to exist, there must be free will. That is, I cannot be held responsible for something that did not fully and only arise from me. This is simply not true. And Paul realized this would be argued whenever he presented the real Gospel. "How then can He still find fault?; for who can resist His will?" And, Paul's answer is my answer, "Who are you to contend with God?"
So, our guilt, arising from our evil, originated not because we are "free from God to behave/think as we will" (the required definition of free will), but because He wrote this into our story. And, we are held guilty for it, and we love it (because He gave us a nature to love it and causes us to act/think that way). And, we will certainly be blamed for it (unless we are forgiven in Christ).
Lam. 3:37,38, "...Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"
Lam. 2:6, "...The Lord has caused to be forgotten the appointed feast and sabbath in Zion,..."
This is everywhere in the Scriptures, but most wish to gloss over it...by God's design and execution. He is the One managing this evil into existence, managing its operation, and managing its results...yet remains guiltless. That is why we needn't fear the actions of the evil. God is maneuvering them, as He is us. If it causes us pain, so be it.
That is the message of the Scriptures and subsumes impressions that we are "free" (or anyone else is "free") or requests for us to choose (as if that choice is not being conditioned). Every choice, every thought, every behavior is carefully scripted for God's glory. There is not a maverick molecule in creation.
Otherwise, we have a pagan god rushing about trying to compensate, to react, to make up, to clean up, to counteract, to fix the problems created by all the "free" beings running loose. That may be Greek mythology but it is not the picture painted by the Bible.
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