Posted on 06/21/2012 8:24:00 AM PDT by fishtank
As Baptists Prepare to Meet, Calvinism Debate Shifts to Heresy Accusation Hundreds, including seminary presidents, have signed a statement on salvation criticized by both Reformed and Arminian theologians. Weston Gentry [ posted 6/18/2012 ] A statement by a non-Calvinist faction of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has launched infighting within the nation's largest Protestant denomination, and tensions are expected to escalate Tuesday as church leaders descend on New Orleans.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
But doesn’t God choose that person to woo?
“In the above illustration of hearing the message, do you believe God opened up your heart and mind to help you come to Christ?”
Of course.
But that only makes me a Calvinist if I ALSO believe:
1 - He did so irresistibly, and
2 - He refuses to allow others the same opportunity, because he wants to send them to hell instead.
Agreed. A very deep subject, but arguably necessary to this discussion as far as the idea that man would never choose God on his own.
So you have to take the Scripture as a whole.
Again, agreed. But this means we must reconcile your quote and mine, "justification that brings life for all men" vs "Moreover, whom He predestined, those He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified; and whom He justified, those He also glorified."
Since Calvanism seems to make the more absolute statement, how does Calvanism reconcile those two Biblical statements?
But that only makes me a Calvinist if I ALSO believe:
1 - He did so irresistibly,[sic Like Abraham, Moses, Samson, David, Paul, etc] and
2 - He refuses to allow others the same opportunity, because he wants to send them to hell instead. [sic Man is destined to go to hell anyway. What you are actually saying is it's not fair of God not to give people a choice of where they should go. ]
“Since Calvanism seems to make the more absolute statement, how does Calvanism reconcile those two Biblical statements?”
I think we just have to confess them both.
-God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Moreover, whom He predestined, those He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified; and whom He justified, those He also glorified, having predestined us to be His own adopted children by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. .
-
The above paragraph is all Scripture, and it is all true. How to understand it? God is sovereign, yet man is held responsible. In all things, God does what is right.
I do not wish to deny one concept OR the other.
And Who created the universe that operates like that?
Christians assume everyone wants to go to heaven if given a choice.
Assume for a moment that people really want to rebel against God and simply don’t care if they go to hell. This is the world we ACTUALLY live in. Simply look around.
That also means God has to exert extra effort to save some of us from ourselves.
And Who created the universe that operates like that?
The question isn't Who created a universe that operates LIKE this. The question is WHY did God create a universe that operates like this.
The question is “could Adam have done otherwise?”
Was Adam perfect or did he have a flaw?
You see Adam's desire for rebellion as a flaw. What if it's neither? What if it's neutral? And what if that same desire for rebellion against the things of God could be turned to rebel against ungodliness? Isn't that what the Holy Spirit does inside each believer?
All the arguing and I am noticing here between Calvinists and Methodists. Now I see why. I really think Methodists
will be very open to the “Great Warning” (non-Catholic
Christians know it as the “awakening”) Rev 6:15-17, more
than other non-Catholic Christian denominations.
Back to the subject, for the rest of Jimmy’s writing
check the link.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm
~ ~ ~
James Akin
Predestination means many things to many people. ALL Christian churches believe in some form of predestination, because the Bible uses the term [1], but what predestination is and how it works are in dispute.
In Protestant circles there are two major camps when it comes to predestination: Calvinism and Arminianism [2]. Calvinism is common in Presbyterian, Reformed, and a few Baptist churches. Arminianism is common in Methodist, Pentecostal, and most Baptist churches [3].
Even though Calvinists are a minority among Protestants today, their view has had enormous influence, especially in this country. This is partly because the Puritans and the Baptists who helped found America were Calvinists, but it is also because Calvinism traditionally has been found among the more intellectual Protestants, giving it a special influence.
Calvinists claim God PREDESTINES people by choosing which individuals will accept his offer of salvation. These people are known as “the elect” [4]. They are not saved against their will. It is because God has chosen them that they will desire to come to him in the first place. Those who are not among the elect, “the reprobate,” will not desire to come to God, will not do so, and thus will not be saved [5].
Arminians claim God predestines people by pronouncing (but not deciding) who will accept salvation. He makes this pronouncement using his foreknowledge, which enables him to see what people will do in the future. He sees who will choose to accept his offer of salvation. The people who God knows will repent are those he regards as his “elect” or “chosen” people.
The debate between Calvinists and Arminians is often fierce. These groups frequently accuse each other of teaching a false gospel, at least on a theoretical level, although on a practical level there is little difference between the two since both groups command people to have “FAITH ALONE” in order to be saved [6].
The debate is centered on the well-known formula TULIP. Each letter of this acronym stands for a different doctrine held by classical Calvinists [7] but rejected by Arminians. The doctrines are: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. ...
All the disagreement in this thread plus Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin’s writing on the non-Catholic Christian differences plus his sharing the Church teaching, it’s not
a one time read to understand.
Why you have ask by whose authority do you believe what you do? The reason we have the Church. God gave her the authority.
~ ~ ~
The Council of Trent (1551-52)
“If anyone says that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work than the vocation of Paul, let him be anathema.... If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm
“He did so irresistibly,[sic Like Abraham, Moses, Samson...”
You confuse foreknowing with forcing. What does it say about Abraham?
“6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”
Abraham believed, not Abraham received belief. Noun, verb. He believed. Active: he DID it.
“Man is destined to go to hell anyway. What you are actually saying is it’s not fair of God not to give people a choice of where they should go.”
If we access grace by faith, and God gives faith to some (which never, ever happens in scripture) and refuses to give it to others, then God chooses to send people to hell, for his pleasure.
That most will go there is not in dispute. That God wants them to go there, and refuses to allow them to repent, is. When Jesus said, “Whosoever believes...”, I think he meant it. I don’t think he meant, “Whosoever I give belief to...”
Part of the problem with Calvinism is that it makes God a liar, and the words of scripture false. If Calvinism is true, there ought to be at least one verse in scripture saying God gives men saving faith as a gift. There is no such verse.
And there should be no verses showing God seeking to save men - yet that is how he is consistently portrayed.
Yes Abraham believed God. The reason Abraham believed God was because Abraham was part of the flock.
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Everything is done according to the will of God and for His pleasure. God deliberately hardens peoples hearts to enact His plan. Right now a hardening of the hearts of the Jews is happening until the fullness of the Gentiles come to past. This is part of His plan. You may think this is rather mean of God but as CS Lewis points out, most people would rather reign in hell than to serve in heaven.
Part of the problem with Calvinism is that it makes God a liar...If Calvinism is true, there ought to be at least one verse in scripture saying God gives men saving faith as a gift.
Faith comes to us from God and this is saving faith. It is GIVEN to us by God through hearing His words.
And there should be no verses showing God seeking to save men
Well, there is Christ's mission. Do you believe this verse to be correct? Do you believe Christ is actually saving all the lost or are there people who He has failed to save? Do you believe that every person that God wants to be saved will be saved and Christ is triumphed in His mission?
You write:
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Faith comes to us from God and this is saving faith. It is GIVEN to us by God through hearing His words.
Actually, Romans 10 supports the non-Calvinist.
“6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
Notice this is about how God seeks us out. God reaching to us, “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved...For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.”
Faith is what exists when someone hears the Gospel and believes. That is the definition of faith:
“1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.”
If you believe what someone says, you have faith in them. If you believe the Gospel, you have faith in the promise of God. Saving faith is something that YOU do. It is not something God gives, nor does it follow regeneration. It is the cause of regeneration, “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”
It is not given irresistibly by God to enable someone to hear - for that is what Calvin argues, that a man cannot hear the Gospel unless God first regenerates him.
The call goes out, but not all respond. “But they have not all obeyed the gospel.” The Gospel starts with the command to repent, and not all do. Most do not. Their choice.
“Do you believe Christ is actually saving all the lost or are there people who He has failed to save? Do you believe that every person that God wants to be saved will be saved and Christ is triumphed in His mission?”
I believe what Paul wrote: “But they have not all obeyed the gospel.” Or as he said in Acts: ““It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.”
He doesn’t say God has denied them life, and thus they cannot believe. He says “Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life...”
There is no claim here that God prevented them from believing. No claim that God refused them, or that God hardened their hearts to prevent their belief. Many reject the Gospel, and many reject the revelation God has given every man:
“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”
Notice: “For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him...”
Not that they were dead, and God chose not to regenerate them so they could understand, but “although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him...”
Romans 10:17 does not, in any way, suggest that faith is given by God to man. It instead teaches that men may respond with faith to the Gospel message proclaimed by Christians:
“14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
You have the doublethink down pat, I'll give you that.
Adam's sin was caused by his perfection. That's amazing.
Hi, no reply, this is fine.
I looked for a simple explanation for why Calvinism is heresy. Read the question and answer, the answer sounds like God’s way of doing things.
~ ~ ~
Question
Hello,
I have a question about predestination. I think I believe in it, I believe that some people from the very beginning are chosen, by God, to be either good or bad, go to hell, purgatory or straight to heaven. Think about Hitler in Germany or about Stalin in the Soviet Union. People commit sins and that’s why wars break out and will always break out because people will never stop committing sins. I think, as a punishment, God chose Hitler as his tool to punish people, isn’t it predestination. Now think about Father Pio (bore the wounds of christ on his person for fifty years), at a very early age father Pio had visions of his Guardian Angel, Holy Mary and Jesus, because God has chosen him, as a tool of salvation for many other people whom he managed to help during his life, isn’t it predestination, I think it is. What are your thoughts about it? Thank You!
Answer:
Dear Luke:
The definition of predestination that you are describing comes from the heresy of John Calvin. If we think about it a minute, how can a loving Heavenly Father predestine someone to hell? What father would do that?
John Calvin had this notion that some are predestined to hell, others to heaven, and there is nothing the person could do about it. Obviously, there is no free will in this economy. Some go to hell whether they like it or not, and others go to heaven whether they like it or not.
To resolve that problem, Calvin came up with the notion of “irresistible grace”. This means that those on the list to go to heaven WILL accept God’s grace even if they don’t want to. God’s grace is “irresistible” and therefore cannot be refused.
These notions are NONSENSE, unbiblical, and offensive to a God who is love.
St. Peter, our first Pope teaches us: “The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (2 PET 3:9)
So what is predestination?
+ + Predestination is not a willing of God to assign someone to heaven or hell, rather it is a FOREKNOWLEDGE where God KNOWS from all eternity which people will CHOOSE Him and which will not. He has predestined heaven for those who accept Him and hell for those who reject. BUT MAN IS FREE to choose good or evil. + +
How this foreknowledge and man’s free will are compatible is a mystery. We can speculate and grab on to some notions of how this is possible, but in the end it is a mystery hidden in God.
An imperfect analogy might be an old married couple, married for 50 years. They know each other so well that they can “know” what the other will do in advance of them doing it. This foreknowledge does not force the husband, for example, to do what he does, he does it out of free choice; it is just that the wife “knows” he will do it.
Such foreknowledge does not interfere with free will, it just knows what choice the husband will make.
Although this analogy is very imperfect, it does give us a clue to how foreknowledge does not interfere with free will.
As for God choosing people for certain things, yes, He does that with all of us, but He DOES NOT force anyone to live out that calling. Even the Blessed Mother, who was called to be the Mother of God, was not forced. She could have refused God’s plan. We see in the book of Luke that Mary made a free will choice to accept God’s plan. This is called Mary’s Fiat. The same choice must be made to accept God’s plan for us whether the person is Padre Pio, or you and me.
As for Hitler and Stalin being instruments of God’s punishment, we need to be very careful about such notions.
God does not perpetrate material evil upon people. He offers them love and justice, but does not perpetrate material or actual evil.
The evil that harms us is created by ourselves — mankind — and by the devil. Hitler was a product of his upbringing, his decisions, and maybe a mental disease, and maybe demon possession. He decided to do what he did, and Stalin too. The evil perpetrated upon the world by them was accomplished through their free will choice to do what they did.
I do not believe God “willed” the horror of Hitler or Stalin, or “willed” the AIDS epidemic or the like in any way. Hitler, Stalin, AIDS, hunger, war, etc. are all products of human sin. Thus we punish ourselves, God doesn’t have to zap us, we zap ourselves.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/religion-3.htm
Nope. I didn't say Adam's sin was caused by his perfection. What I said was
2) God created him just the way he was,
3) while in this perfect state Adam sinned,
4) God knew that what He was creating would rebel against Him, and
5) God knew the punishment laid out for Adam even before his creation and rebellion.
If people wish to understand what caused Adam to sin and fall in a state of absolute perfection, I would suggest they ponder this verse which holds the clue:
Jhn 5:44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
This is the trouble with all of us.
I normally do a lot of reading on Catholic websites to understand Catholic positions. I would suggest you look at more informed sources on Reformed sites if you are serious about understanding the Reformed view.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.