Posted on 03/26/2012 1:38:33 PM PDT by NYer
Edit: A definition from Wikipedia is useful here: Blasphemy is irreverence towards religious or holy persons or things.[1] Some countries have laws to punish blasphemy,[2] while others have laws to give recourse to those who are offended by blasphemy.
[Fell's Point, Baltimore, MD] There was a show called "Cheers" on television years ago. It was bawdy and vulgar yet there were some borders it was not safe to pass in the early 80s when the show first aired. It depicted a homey place, reminiscent of an unpretentious neighborhood bar with a hint of old world ambiance and Boston charm. The heavy wooden furniture and the bar spoke of permanence, elegance, and that favorite piety of secular artists, human dignity. It was not always clear who the show's buffoons were, but you knew them when you saw them, and sometimes, it was a comedic mailman who could be the most noble in the simplicity of his fears. Some other writer said something about irony being lost on a society which had no shame. That's why we'd like to wield a metaphorical hammer. Perhaps there are others who can put a better finish on the details of what we will tell.
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| Satirical painting: priest displeased with Nun? |
All we can say is that sometimes evil is really mundane and some of us don't realize that we're not only bufoons needlessly offending people's religious sensibilities, but far worse than that, we're offending God. Even the name of the bar, a pun on the Blessed Mother's name seems calculated to be offensive.
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| Would you like some candy? |
We're not talking about this place, but it's not far from Boston, but it boasts a similar unmistakable charm you'd expect in New England with friendly folks.
One of the features of the bar, and there are many, is its unmistakable Catholic ambiance. It's called, Ale Mary's and is located in Fell's point Maryland. One can just smell the faint aroma of the ocean as you think about it. The food is inexpensive, but if you're Catholic you might find it too expensive for the peace of your conscience to see the sacramental elements of your religion appear for the sake of decoration in peculiarly deliberate ways.
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| Chalices Used for Holy Sacrifice Being Abused by Patrons |
It's not surprising, but it's not acceptable either that chalices which are used in Catholic Mass for the consecration of wine which becomes the blood of Christ, are used by patrons to drink (and get drunk from). They're made of precious metals, sometimes jewels, but their use in such a secular setting is strange and unsettling. No less than the inexplicable painting of a priest with a stole, looking aghast or in surprise at a nun who has her back to him.
The most disturbing thing in the restaurant is the monstrance which is behind the bar used as decoration. The monstrance is large ornate disk, often resembling the sun, which is surmounted in a long stand with a heavy base. It contains a crystal compartment at the center of the disk where a consecrated communion Host can be placed inside and it allows the priest to elevate the entire object by the stand for the veneration of the Sacrament it contains. Seeing this monstrance here in this bar, covered with mardigras beads and a mustached smiley face where the Host would normally be is a little bit like finding family heirlooms in the hands of people who not only use them for purposes for which they were never intended, but use them in disrespectful ways.
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| Mustached Smiley Face Seems Particularly Malevolent |
We found out about this recently and the individual who sent this to us wrote an e-mail complaining about the display of these religious items and even offered to purchase them. Far from being treated with the respect she deserved, her concerns were met with derision.
Despite the bar owner claiming that no one cared about this clearly blasphemous display of religious artifacts, he asked her to remove an entry she made under the bar at a public site allowing comment on establishments.
As he berated our friend, the proprietor insisted as an argument to justify his sacrilege and disrespect for Catholic sacramentals, that there were even Bishops and priests who thought that his blasphemous inclusion of religious articles was comical and that there was nothing wrong with this display.
Apparently, there's some truth to what he says, because Catholic clergy, including senior, does frequent this place.
We'll be praying a Rosary in reparation for having seen this blasphemy. Hopefully, the proprietor can be persuaded to part with these items before word of this affects his business either spiritually or financially.
Give them a call:
Corner of Fleet & Washington Sts.
Fell's Point
Baltimore, MD.
21231
410-276-2044
>> “They are blessed and sacred because of the proper use of them.” <<
.
Then they are an abomination because they’re idols.
If you call hold the Body or Blood of Jesus Christ an abomination — I feel sorry for you.
What did I not say in my post to indicate that they are sacred vessels?
Do you consider Holy Water to be an idol too?
How about Palm Btanches — are they idols.
Only if these objects are adored instead of adoring Christ are they idols. And they aren’t, they are just sacred things that have a lot of symbolic meaning.
Do you have a cross in your church? Do you consider it an idol?
You wrote:
“Getting outraged over this is what the Muslims do.”
From a purely logical standpoint your comment is grossly ignorant.
1) According to Islam, Muslims are not to make images of Muhammad. That doesn’t mean a Danish Lutheran can’t make an image of Muhammad. Thus, the Muslims never had a valid reason to be upset in the first place.
2) The Danish Lutheran did not belong to Islam or Muslims. The items in the photos in this thread were owned by and used by Catholics and the Catholic Church. Thus, someone is using OUR sacred items in a profane way. We have every right to be upset with how someone uses property once dedicated to the service of OUR God, OUR Church, and OUR people when that usage is profane to say the least. Also, the items in question are probably stolen to begin with or have been appropriated in a way the original owner - the Church or a cleric - NEVER INTENDED.
3) And in regard to this comment: “Are you suggesting that only Christians who believe the chalice is some form of super powerful cup should be allowed to drink from them?” It is only logical that sacred property should be handled only by those to whom it properly belogs. I would never, EVER, think of using a Methodist ministers chalice for something profane even though he might not even believe in the Real Presence and no miracle takes place in it. To use it in a profane way would simply to denigrate the beliefs and practices of the people who own it. Those of us who are civilized and believe in common decency would not use yarmulke or tallits as napkins. I guess you would?
Thanks for posting that. I was going to look it up and post it this evening. It was my first thought when I read the article.
I wonder what would happen if somebody opened a bar making fun of Islamic holy objects.
Maryland “Freak State” PING!
Yes those are all idols if they have so much meaning to them that you can’t understand they are just representations. Unless the Bible specifically says those things are never to fall out of the hands of the church and you should do everything in your power to shut those that do down—then you need to relax a bit. Worship as you see fit and don’t go looking to get upset over others. You should be more concerned with their souls and less with the relics they use.
From a purely logical standpoint you made my point for me.
1) Obviously we don’t think they have a leg to stand on, yet they do it anyway. Kind of like this post...where does it say in the Bible that these specific items are holy and those that use them in the way they are used should be ran out of town? Should we be more concerned with their souls vice what they are doing with our idols?
2) Ah, but who owns them now? The Catholic church should keep control of their idols more closely, less they fall into other’s hands. If these are truly the churches idols they should be able to sue and get them back.
3) Ok so you wouldn’t do this, but these people are. As I said the conversation should be about their souls and praying for them not about idols of the church.
You wrote:
“From a purely logical standpoint you made my point for me.”
Not even remotely. You never actually studied logic did you?
“1) Obviously we don’t think they have a leg to stand on, yet they do it anyway. Kind of like this post...where does it say in the Bible that these specific items are holy and those that use them in the way they are used should be ran out of town?”
Please tell me from where in the Bible we get the phrase “Holy Bible”. Can you do that? Since when must a thing be mentioned in the Bible to be holy?
“Should we be more concerned with their souls vice what they are doing with our idols?”
There are no idols involved. No idols were mentioned, described, or photographed. Why are you essentially inventing something that isn’t there?
“2) Ah, but who owns them now? The Catholic church should keep control of their idols more closely, less they fall into other’s hands.”
What idols? The Catholic Church has none. Never did. Also, if this is stolen property, and it might be, how can you blame the victim for the theft? And again, what idols?
“If these are truly the churches idols they should be able to sue and get them back.”
Again, what idols? No idols are mentioned and the Catholic Church has never had any. why are you essentially making things up out of thin air? If you have to make things up - things not remotely mentioned in the article - doesn’t that automatically suggest you have no argument worth noting?
“3) Ok so you wouldn’t do this, but these people are. As I said the conversation should be about their souls and praying for them not about idols of the church.”
Again, there are no idols involved. How can someone who makes things up even consider to have a conversation about the state of someone else’s soul?
By that logic, Biblical Judaism was chock-full of idols, put there by God's express command. One of their "idols" was so sacred that a man who touched it without authorization was instantly struck dead.
They had a building that was an "idol," too -- part of it was so sacred that only one man could enter it, on only one day a year, and then only twice on that day, and only after taking a bath and putting on special clothes.
Again, by God's express, to-the-letter command.
I wonder sometimes if some of the "Bible Christians" who frequent this site ever study the Bible outside of Romans, Galatians, and Revelation.
I need to be careful as this was started in a news section but has been moved to religion. So I don’t want to violate the rules of this forum.
But clearly the way some are acting on this thread reminds me of how muslims act when we burn a Koran. Yet we act like what’s the big deal...same should apply here. It’s not like they are killing God—they may be doing something sacrilegious to you; however, who cares. If the Catholic church thought it was critical they could excommunicate them—if they are catholic.
Once again this is a big to do about nothing. Once the items are no longer used in service and are sold in the open market then they are no longer meaningful for spiritual purposes (unless they are re-purposed for such things).
Is a cross that gets melted down and remade into something else a violation of your church? What if it gets made into a little buddah—is it now bad? What if a buddah is melted and made into a cross? Or what happens to holy water that evaporates and eventually falls to the earth as rain?
You wrote:
“Once again this is a big to do about nothing.”
False.
“Once the items are no longer used in service and are sold in the open market then they are no longer meaningful for spiritual purposes (unless they are re-purposed for such things).”
Again, false. These items only have one purpose.
“Is a cross that gets melted down and remade into something else a violation of your church?”
Your analogy is false for nothing has been melted down here. Again, you don’t seem to understand logic.
“What if it gets made into a little buddah—is it now bad?”
A chalice is a chalice. A chalice cannot be a Buddha. Nothing is being re-made here.
“What if a buddah is melted and made into a cross?”
Nothing is being melted down here - except your false arguments.
“Or what happens to holy water that evaporates and eventually falls to the earth as rain?”
Nothing is evaporating here - except any chance you have an argument.
Read post 14. In fact, why don’t you read the Old Testament.
wrong...clearly a chalice can be used for other things...as proven by this bar. Same thing with the candy dispenser. Is it tasteless—to many yes.
Will it cause all catholics to go to hell and lose their religion? Nope.
Have you ever bothered to read the book of Daniel? Well go read it and see what God thought of the golden vessels being stolen from the Jewish temple and used to get drunk with.
Right, but I’m more of a new testament Christian. Got anything in that book about this stuff?
Well the church isn’t a building its the people, so I say you open the doors of church for drinking parties on Fri. nights.
A pagan catholic implement of idolatry is not equivalent to a temple vessel ordained by YHWH. Not even close.
Ever wonder why the #2 commandments was dropped and the 10th commandment was split into #9 & #10? At least on the catholic side?
I think that’s why we won’t agree on this. So we’ll need to let it rest. Catholics don’t have an issue with idolatry and protestants do. Might be due to our 2nd commandment being different, so looks like we aren’t going to fix that anytime soon.
They are sold all the time. Look on ebay or call businesses which deal in antique silver. We gave the priest at our church a beautiful antique chalice amd paten that we bought from an antique silver dealer in Atlanta.
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