Posted on 02/25/2012 8:06:24 AM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
1. Our intimacy with God – His highest priority for our lives – determines the impact of our lives.
More about Our Intimacy with God
2. Obey God and leave all the consequences to Him.
More about A Life of Obedience
3. God’s Word is an immovable anchor in times of storm.
More about Our Anchor in Times of Storm
4. The awareness of God’s presence energizes us for our work.
More about Energized by His Presence
5. God does not require us to understand His will, just obey it, even if it seems unreasonable.
More about The Unreasonable Will of God
6. You reap what you sow, more than you sow, and later than you sow.
More about The Principle of Sowing and Reaping
7. The dark moments of our life will last only so long as is necessary for God to accomplish His purpose in us.
More about The Dark Moments in our Life
8. Fight all your battles on your knees and you win every time.
More about Fight Your Battles on Your Knees
9. Trusting God means looking beyond what we can see to what God sees.
More about The Thrill of Trusting God
10. If necessary, God will move heaven and earth to show us His will.
More about God Will Show You His Will
11. God assumes full responsibility for our needs when we obey Him.
More about His Promise to Provide
12. Peace with God is the fruit of oneness with God.
More about The Key to Continued Peace
13. Listening to God is essential to walking with God.
More about Listening to God – Walking with God
14. God acts on behalf of those who wait for Him.
More about God Acts on our Behalf
15. Brokenness is God’s requirement for maximum usefulness.
More about God’s Pathway of Brokenness
16. Whatever you acquire outside of God’s will eventually turns to ashes.
More about When Plans Turn to Ashes
17. We stand tallest and strongest on our knees.
More about Standing Tall and Strong Through Prayer
18. As children of a sovereign God, we are never victims of our circumstances.
More about Victim or Victor?
19. Anything you hold too tightly, you will lose.
More about Holding Too Tightly
20. Disappointments are inevitable, discouragement is a choice.
More about Overcoming Discouragement
21. Obedience always brings blessing.
More about Obedience Always Brings Blessings
22. To walk in the Spirit is to obey the initial promptings of the Spirit.
More about Walking In The Holy Spirit
23. You can never outgive God.
More about You Can Never Outgive God
24. To live the Christian life is to allow Jesus to live His life in and through us.
More about The Key to the Christian Life
25. God blesses us so that we might bless others.
More about Passing on God’s Blessing
26. Adversity is a bridge to a deeper relationship with God.
More about Burden or Bridge
27. Prayer is life’s greatest time saver.
More about Prayer: Our Time-Saver
28. No Christian has ever been called to “go it alone” in his or her walk of faith.
More about Together In the Christian Life
29. We learn more in our valley experiences than on our mountaintops.
More about The Valley Experiences In Our Life
30. An eager anticipation of the Lord’s return keeps us living productively.
More about Anticipating The Lord’s Return
Reductionism is when we take complex matters and so distill them that the cliche' ridden result no longer represents the issue. For example:
"8. Fight all your battles on your knees and you win every time."
The Scriptures make it clear that we will "win" in the end irrespective of what happens here. And, it will not matter how much time you spent on your knees. What battles is he referring to and what does a "win" look like? Many believers have terribly difficult lives with no "win", such as the Iranian pastor who is about to be executed because he will not convert to Islam. Tell his children after the gunshot that prayer will "win" the battle.
"10. If necessary, God will move heaven and earth to show us His will."
No, this is not true. God withheld all kinds of information from the prophets and others, such that the entire matter of the Gentiles being grafted in. Much of what He was doing with his people was called a "mystery". God has an enormous amount of information he is not sharing with anyone...even Stanley or you. And, Stanley has no idea what God is going to do with him over the next 2 years. Unless he is a "prophet" and granted direct revelation, he needs to be quiet about this. After all, he didn't even follow through on what happened in his marriage.
"Well, a few weeks ago, the other shoe dropped. Stanley announced that the divorce was final, a great personal tragedy. But instead of resigning as he promised five years ago, Stanley vowed to stay on as senior pastor. He characterized it as being "faithful to God's call.""
This is a quote from a 2000 article on Stanley. Faithful to God's call? Another "still small voice". Malarky.
"11. God assumes full responsibility for our needs when we obey Him.
23. You can never outgive God.
These are related and equally false. God is the One caring for us at all times, NOT when we are obeying Him. Stanley's remarks are wrongheaded Judaism warmed over. Paul suffered hunger, beatings, shipwreck and did not succeed the way Stanley paints this picture. This is God caring for us no matter how much or how little we pray. Such blasphemous "health/wealth" theology is also coming from Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Oral Roberts, Robert Schuller. Believers are going to suffer in this life. Is that one of his 30 principles?
All of these are examples of reductionism. Stanley is teaching like believers are 3rd graders needing nursery rhymes. And, much of what he is teaching is false. There are the facts...should you wish to face into them.
The only thing you can do is take the one-line description of the topic of the message and make some lame attempt to discredit the message while remaining completely ignorant of what Dr. Stanley actually said.
You could not produce any direct quotes from the sermons, or anything from the sermons that validates your false accusations against Dr. Stanley because not only did you not listen to what he had to say, you wouldn't understand what he had to say because it involves taking God at His word without arrogantly allegorizing the Scripture into meaninglessness. That's why you can't back up your accusations - you don't even know what the man is talking about.
So, you have no credibility, you hurl false accusations at men who preach the word of God, and you can't validate your assertions. Just as I said from the beginning.
As I mentioned, I have heard these same things in his sermons for 20+years. Due the extraordinarily errant nature of his reductionism, I intentionally have not memorized them. That you view this as not credible is certainly your perogative, but if you are really interested in credibility, I would encourage you to re-read my remarks about Stanley’s posted “sayings” and ask yourself whether or not they are true.
Bump
The least you could have done is skimmed the sermon notes given at the links so you wouldn't have looked quite so foolish.
Like I said, zero credibility.
My FRiend, of course the sermon about not being able to “outgive” God is about tithing. If you actually believe what he is saying about this utterly false claim, you are ignoring good hermeneutics in your own Bible study. Do you actually hold onto a Jewish view of tithing as a believing Gentile? Well, then Stanley has a fair amount to teach you about what to wear, eat, and touch. I’m sure he will integrate his “outgiving” message into each. Tragic.
Sigh.
I'll post the sermon outline that you desperately want to avoid because it proves that you were, let's say, less than truthful.
Oh, and by the way, Dr. Stanley begins with New Testament verses about tithing:
Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.” (Luke 6:38)
And He told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man was very productive. 17 And he began reasoning to himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?’ 18 Then he said, ‘This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.”’ 20 But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’ 21 So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” (Luke 12:16-21)
So Scripture destroys your delusion that tithing is a "Jewish view".
I. Introduction: What comes to mind when you consider your personal finances? Perhaps you think about investments or debts. You might reflect on your progress toward monetary goals. But few people think about how much more they could give away.
Why is giving so important? What we do with our wealth demonstrates in a tangible way how well we trust, love, and honor God. Christians fully committed to Him will give generously to the work of the Lord.
There is also a practical benefit to our generosity: it unleashes the Father’s provision (Luke 6:38). This scriptural principle is as changeless as the law of gravity. Those who give generously can expect God’s blessings in their lives and eternal rewards in heaven.
II. What does Scripture teach about our possessions?
A. God owns it all (Ps. 50:12). We are simply stewards of what He has given. The parable of the rich man is a powerful illustration of how foolish we are to think anything belongs to us (Luke 12:16-21).
B. We should give the first portion of our income to God. Malachi 3:8-12 explains the nation of Israel was cursed for their failure to tithe.
C. We are to give cheerfully. As 2 Corinthians 9:7 says, our giving should be filled with joy.
III. Why should we give?
A. To provide for His work: giving supports the work of the gospel, not only locally but also around the world.
B. To prove His faithfulness: when we are generous givers, God promises to provide for us.
C. To provide for the needs of others: we should share food and clothing with the needy but above all, we are to remember that humanity’s biggest need is for the gospel.
D. To honor God: as we give to others, we demonstrate His kindness to the world.
IV. What is God’s plan for giving to us?
A. God’s greatest blessings come to those who live obediently before Him. In other words, disobedience has consequences, which can include financial struggles (see Hag. 1:5-7).
B. God provides for His children. So if Christians don’t have the basic things they need, they should prayerfully evaluate their lives.
V. What promises can we claim about financial provision?
A. Malachi 3:10: “‘Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse . . . and test Me now in this,’ says the Lord of hosts, ‘if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.’”
B. Proverbs 3:9-10: “Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce; so your barns will be filled with plenty.”
C. Luke 6:38: “Give, and it will be given to you . . . For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”
D. Second Corinthians 9:6: “He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.”
E. Second Corinthians 9:7-8: “Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that . . . you may have an abundance for every good deed.”
F. Mark 9:41: “Whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ . . . he will not lose his reward.”
G. Matthew 19:29: “Everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life” (see also Luke 18:29-30).
VI. Conclusion: Would you describe yourself as a cheerful and generous giver? Whether or not you would, I challenge you to ask the Lord, “How much more do You want me to give?” Your generosity opens the door to His abundant blessing in your life—not just financially, but in every other area too. My friend, you cannot outgive God. Be generous, and allow Him to demonstrate His amazing ability to provide.
So now we see that you, ah, fibbed about what Dr. Stanley said in that sermon because we know from the sermon outline that it had nothing to do with "prosperity gospel"; you have no credibility; and now we see that you deny Scripture.
Why have you been listening to a pastor for, what was it, "20+ years", if he doesn't tell the truth?
As much as you would like to kick against the goad, this is the Law, my FRiend. The New Covenant began with the blood shed by the Lamb. If you watch the "movie" of the Scriptures unfold, Jesus was teaching the Law to the Jews until He was crucified. Then you were grafted in. Until then, most of what He was "teaching" was to break the backs of the stubborn Law-keeping Jews to realize they were not keeping the Law.
For example, the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5 - 7) contains the so-called "Golden Rule", correct? Well, no. In spite of this being used for "Christian Living", this is not the Gospel. Notice, "Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do so for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Jesus is not speaking to us Gentiles.
Notice further, Matt. 16:24, "I was sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel". The three years of Jesus teaching on the earth was calling to His people (Israel), "You are broken, in spite of you thinking you are good." Recall, Matt. 5:21, "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder', but I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court..." You see, Jesus is teaching the Law and noting that the Jews had "dumbed" it down to a doable manner. But, it was so excruciatingly harsh that they could not keep it, since every Jew gets angry with his brother.
But, teachers utilizing poor hermeneutics take this to be "Christian Living". Ditto to "tithing". There is no tithing following the cross. There is no temple to tithe to and there is no organization with priests to support. But, notice, this is where the Catholics got their sacerdotalism and the reformers called heresy on this view of the Scriptures.
So, the New Testament may include M, M, L, J, but the New Covenant began at the cross. Now, the giving that is referred to in Cor. is Paul asking the wealthy Greeks to gather money for the starving Jerusalem believers, not for an organization. He tells them to send the money with a couple representatives who will come back and tell them what happened. You need to read the entire story without overlaying Stanley's sales pitch. And, this goes for Hag. Mal. etc. You are reading someone else's mail, my FRiend.
"So if Christians don’t have the basic things they need, they should prayerfully evaluate their lives."
This is one of most cruel things ever spouted by Stanley. He is a wealthy American and never missed a meal in his life. He should look at all of the believers who have been starved over the centuries and consider if he even recognizes the Gospel. Shame on this monster.
We'll have to chip in and get you a couple of reading lessons. I said, "I've heard the guy..." not "Listened". After I first identified that he was errant, I could not help but bump into him on television every so often. Each time, however, that same errant message came through and I would turn. Sorry.
I don’t know why mainline Protestants have that issue. Why don’t you ask someone who is a member of one
Jesus said that He came to fulfil the Old Testament law. Now let's leave the human opinions aside for a moment, and look at what Scripture says:
"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD." (Leviticus 27:30)
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 states that one-tenth of all that comes into your possession, belongs to God. Malachi 3:8 asks the question "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation." In verse 10 of Malachi 3, states "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
Are there parts of the law that Jesus did not fulfill? If so, which parts of the law did He not fulfill and can you produce the Scripture to support your assertion? Since the book of Leviticus spelled out the law, and the tithing part of the law is reiterated throughout the Scripture, including the New Testament, are the Scriptures which command God's people to tithe not included in Jesus' fulfillment of the law? Where is the Scripture to support that?
The tithe came before the law was given as Abraham tithed unto Melchizedek in Genesis 14:18-20. It was required during the law (Malachi 3:10). It was also after the law (Hebrews 5:6-7). Jesus is the Lord of the tithe forever after the order of Melchizedek. In Matthew 23:23 in the New Testament, Jesus plainly states that you should tithe and not leave the other (good works) undone.
So, did Jesus fulfill the law, or did He not?
This is one of most cruel things ever spouted by Stanley.
Was God cruel when He said:
“Give, and it will be given to you . . . For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.” (Luke 6:38)
Was God being cruel? Was Jesus cruel when He did not stop the poor widow in Luke 20 and 21 from giving the little bit of money she had? Was Jesus cruel then?
Why have you been listening to a pastor for over twenty years who does not tell the truth?
I thought I had found one since you indicate on your homepage that you are a Lutheran.
But, first...
"Now let's leave the human opinions aside for a moment, and look at what Scripture says:
"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD." (Leviticus 27:30)
I am not completely certain that all human opinion can be left out of this. For example, you have an opinion here and I don't wish to ignore it. It might be right, it might be wrong. But, I don't see how we can leave opinion out. After all, even Stanley's opinion is something you wish to include. So, I will concede that we should be careful about opinion, but I still believe it will affect things.
Next, this Levitical passage is directly out of the Mosaic Law. Recall, Exodus 19, the first of some 1500 commandments given to the Jews becomes the "Law" to which all Hebrews claim they are going to commit. Unfortunately, as we read the rest of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings (what we call the OT), we find that they do not, cannot, keep the Law. However, they do not recognize their own dilemma. Ultimately, Jeremiah is given a prophecy that tells them, "A day is coming when no man will have to tell another 'Know the Lord', for each shall..." There is one of the many hints of a "New Covenant". Would you agree that to this point in Jeremiah, however, the "Old Covenant" is still in place? Would you also agree that the so-called "Chosen People" are Israel at this point?
If so, then you will notice that the tithing was to the priests to care for them, since they had no property, no land, no means of making a living except for mediating the sacrifices, day in and day out. The Levites (from which we get Leviticus) were these priests and they were to collect this tithe and bring it to the "temple". Now, I trust that you no longer think there is either a temple or sacrifices performed by priests. This, interestingly, is where the Catholics see that the "priesthood" continues on and holy sanctuaries (such as "Saint" Peter's cathedral) actually house holy activities. But, as Jesus prophesied, an hour WAS COMING (but was not there yet till the shed blood) when the true worshippers shall worship in spirit and truth (and not at a place). If you use the Gospels correctly, you will notice that this is all foretelling of the coming "New Covenant". Jn 4:23ff. This is a proper use of M,M,L,J.
Malachi is still within this Old Covenant, and, of course, God was promising his children that "If they obeyed, He would take care of them." But, notice, they did not and were all swept away into captivity. These are shadows, pictures, images of the plight of man in general. But, the promises were to His chosen...Israel, should they be able to keep the commandments.
I am puzzled by your reference to Heb. 5 supporting the tithe. Can you be more specific?
The giving Paul described is simply a "give as much as you can to help these starving people." Read the context. There is no temple, there are no priests, there is no tithing. He would, after all, tell them to tithe to where? Does Stanley hint that the "tithing" he believes in should go to his "organization" or "an organization"? Where is that part in the text?
And, of course, Jesus fulfilled the entire Law. That is why Paul said it is fading away into disuse. And, he pointed out that the real purpose of the Law is convict folks who still don't get it.
"We know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that Law was not made for a righteous man (a man freed) but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching." I Tim. 1:8ff
And,
"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR." Gal. 3:24, 25. And, the tithe was not a "requirement" before the Law (Abraham & Mel), but something someone did if they wanted to pay tribute to someone. Abraham did not repeat this. Stanley is implying something about repeating it to an organization.
Now, this remark about God being "cruel", is very poignant. You have captured even the so-called "Lord's Prayer" problem. Read the entire prayer, "...for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive men, then your Father WILL NOT FORGIVE YOU." Yes, I suppose in the way you mean the question, this is cruel. But, is this your Gospel? Is this the good news you teach? Well, it is in the Sermon on the Mount found in Matt. You better do it or die. But, if it is the Law, given to the Jews, then it makes enormous sense. Got to run... Grace to you.
Can you post anything either Dr. Stanley or I posted that wasn't supported by Scripture? Opinions are meaningless. That's why Dr. Stanley never gives a sermon without supporting Scripture and it's why I always provide Scripture to support what I post.
Next, this Levitical passage is directly out of the Mosaic Law. Recall, Exodus 19, the first of some 1500 commandments given to the Jews becomes the "Law" to which all Hebrews claim they are going to commit. Unfortunately, as we read the rest of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings (what we call the OT), we find that they do not, cannot, keep the Law. However, they do not recognize their own dilemma. Ultimately, Jeremiah is given a prophecy that tells them, "A day is coming when no man will have to tell another 'Know the Lord', for each shall..." There is one of the many hints of a "New Covenant". Would you agree that to this point in Jeremiah, however, the "Old Covenant" is still in place? Would you also agree that the so-called "Chosen People" are Israel at this point?
Well, of course the Old Covenant was still in place at that point and the chosen people, the Jews, whom God refers to as the "apple of His eye", were and still are, Israel.
f so, then you will notice that the tithing was to the priests to care for them, since they had no property, no land, no means of making a living except for mediating the sacrifices, day in and day out. The Levites (from which we get Leviticus) were these priests and they were to collect this tithe and bring it to the "temple". Now, I trust that you no longer think there is either a temple or sacrifices performed by priests. This, interestingly, is where the Catholics see that the "priesthood" continues on and holy sanctuaries (such as "Saint" Peter's cathedral) actually house holy activities. But, as Jesus prophesied, an hour WAS COMING (but was not there yet till the shed blood) when the true worshippers shall worship in spirit and truth (and not at a place). If you use the Gospels correctly, you will notice that this is all foretelling of the coming "New Covenant". Jn 4:23ff. This is a proper use of M,M,L,J.
Yes, just like the tithe in the Old Testament involved priests, and just like salvation in the Old Testament, according to God's law, involved animal sacrifice, the tithe in the New Testament, in the fulfillment of the Old Testament law, does not involve priests but involves giving part of what God already owns back to Him in a more direct way and salvation now involves a person's faith and trust in Jesus Christ's death on the cross as payment for sin.
I am puzzled by your reference to Heb. 5 supporting the tithe. Can you be more specific?
It is a reiteration of the fact that, as I put in my post, Hebrews 5:6 states: And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." So, just as Melchizedek received tithes in Genesis, Jesus receives our tithes now.
The giving Paul described is simply a "give as much as you can to help these starving people." Read the context. There is no temple, there are no priests, there is no tithing. He would, after all, tell them to tithe to where? Does Stanley hint that the "tithing" he believes in should go to his "organization" or "an organization"? Where is that part in the text?
I don't know - you tell me. Did Dr. Stanley hint that the tithing his message was about and which he backed up with Scripture should go to his church? You haven't hesitated so far to lie about the man. You tell me.
And you can also tell me where, in the Scriptures provided in Dr. Stanley's sermon outline, there were any conditions put on tithing. Can you produce the conditions which are in the Scriptures about tithing that were posted?
Now, this remark about God being "cruel", is very poignant. You have captured even the so-called "Lord's Prayer" problem. Read the entire prayer, "...for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive men, then your Father WILL NOT FORGIVE YOU." Yes, I suppose in the way you mean the question, this is cruel. But, is this your Gospel? Is this the good news you teach? Well, it is in the Sermon on the Mount found in Matt. You better do it or die. But, if it is the Law, given to the Jews, then it makes enormous sense.
But that doesn't address the issue. You accused Dr. Stanley of being cruel when God Himself that whatever a person gives, that same amount will be returned to him. Was it cruel for God to say that? And was it cruel when Jesus didn't stop the poor widow from giving money even though she was poor?
Oh, to get back to the Gnostic thing, part of the new gnosticism includes the following:
....Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plain of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God. SourceSounds a lot like what I hear from Stanley each and every morning.
Oh, for what it's worth, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is not considered to be mainstream. And no, I am not a member of the LCMS.
I saw this:
"GRPL Diplomat, Lutheran Ping List"
If you're not a Lutheran, I stand corrected. But I have seen you professing to be a Calvinist, and that is generally the position of mainstream Protestant churches.
Please understand, it doesn't matter to me at all what denomination a person is as long as they don't deny and Scripture and can support their own beliefs with Scripture.
Sounds a lot like what I hear from Stanley each and every morning.
Only the Gnostics can't back up their beliefs with the Bible, and Dr. Stanley can and always does. Now when a person watches Dr. Stanley, and hears Scriptural truths that they don't hear in their own churches, and that pastor gives Scripture to validate what he is preaching, I can understand the dismal, threatened feeling that must come over the person who is watching this and finds it unbelievable because they never hear these things in their church.
But the barometer of whether a doctrine is true or false is if it can be supported by Scripture. Since Dr. Stanley has consistently provided Scripture to support his messages, one can be safely assured that what he says is Biblical truth. A person's perceptions, based on their own biases and beliefs and experiences, doesn't mean a thing. If what a person preaches is in the Bible, then it is truth.
Why do you listen each and every morning to a pastor who you think doesn't tell the truth?
Read this a bit more carefully, I identify myself as GRPL Diplomat to the Lutheran Ping List. The GRPL is the Greta Reformed Ping List. Lutherans are not Reformed, they are Lutheran.
But I have seen you professing to be a Calvinist, and that is generally the position of mainstream Protestant churches.
No, it's not. Calvinism was the stance of the Presbyterian Church, USA and some Dutch Reformed Congregations, but those denominations left Calvinism behind when they started their slide into apostasy. Other Mainstreamers, such as the UMC and several others are decidedly Arminian, always have been.
Oh, many Southern Baptists, the same denomination as Stanley, are firmly 5 point Calvinists.
Read this a bit more carefully, I identify myself as GRPL Diplomat to the Lutheran Ping List. The GRPL is the Great Reformed Ping List. Lutherans are not Reformed, they are Lutheran.
But I have seen you professing to be a Calvinist, and that is generally the position of mainstream Protestant churches.
No, it's not. Calvinism was the stance of the Presbyterian Church, USA and some Dutch Reformed Congregations, but those denominations left Calvinism behind when they started their slide into apostasy. Other Mainstreamers, such as the UMC and several others are decidedly Arminian, always have been.
Oh, many Southern Baptists, the same denomination as Stanley, are firmly 5 point Calvinists.
Well, rest assured that Dr. Stanley is not a Calvinist.
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