Colo, the Church believes that a restoration was necessary because the doctrine had gone wrong. We teach that and believe it. we believe furthermore that that very thing, the Apostacy and falling away, and the Restoration were prophesied of in the New Testament.
Doctrine at an ecclesiastical llevel and at the orgnaizational level is not the same as what people feel in their hearts.
The Church also teaches that there are millions and milliomns of good christian people and people of other faiths all over the world, who are good and seeking the Lord Jesus Christ with their heart, mind, and soul. We respect that and believe that the Holy Ghost and Spirit of Christ can convict any person to Christ. And they do.
We are not seeking to slander anyone, Colo...we are seeking simply to share what we believe to be true...just as you are on all of these threads. So the statement you have made is a two edge sword if I choose to view it that way...that somehow you are the “enemy” and out to get me.
Do some in our Church take the teachings you quote and somehow try and think they are better than everyone else and that other Churches are evil? Yes...but that is not the Spirit of Christ.
I do not view it that way...in fact I seek God’s blessings on you for any and all good you do to bring anyone closer to Christ. Sooner or later, in our faith, any sincere believer in Christ, who seeks after Him and Him crucified will be brought to His full truth.
That is what Christ taught His followers to do.
I believe that...I think you probably believe it to, except of course we each believe that the “truth” lies on our side of the fence.
As I have said before, if Christ appeared on this earth today, I would not only recognize Him but would bow down at His feet and bathe them with my tears...tears of joy and gratitude, and if He lifted my up and said, “Jeff, you need to stop attending the temple, that was all wrong,”...I would do exactly as He says to do.
I would hope, that if, on the other hand, He told you that you should attend the Temple and that the truth had in fact been restored, that you would turn to it. If your faith in Him is sincere...of course you would.
We would both do whatever He indicated.
That time will come. In the mean time, I believe we can each do good and help people come closer to Jesus Christ...and that is not a bad thing, and is what I am committed to doing.
“Do some in our Church take the teachings you quote and somehow try and think they are better than everyone else and that other Churches are evil? Yes...but that is not the Spirit of Christ.”
Since many of your leaders, including your founding prophet, have said that Christian churches are evil do you agree that those same leaders were not speaking with “the Spirit of Christ”?
If so, why do trust anything that those leaders said? Why do you consider them “prophets”?
Yup; and when someone would like a little peek at the EVIDENCE of this assertion; what is given?
Even ol' Martin Luther managed to come up with 95 things or so...
Christianity KNOWS that False Christs and FALSE gospels will appear, and we KNOW that MORMONism is direct evidence of such that were 'prophesied of in the New Testament'.
And in Christian churches all over the Nation, the deception and heresy of MORMONism is fianlly coming to daylight in thousands of sermons, in thousands of pulpits, in thousands of voting districts.
Re: what people feel in their hearts, hey, sometimes it's mere sentimentalism with little-to-no correspondence to reality, and other times it's sheer heartburn. (And that goes for people outside of Mormonism as well as inside).
Jeff, I sense a "summation" of what you're saying here is that: "Hey, WE the Mormon church are THE ONLY authoritative church on the face of the earth." [consistent with D&C 1:30]
Jeff, you or any Mormon can't even point to your source of supposed ultimate authority.
If I asked you, Jeff, where you got your authority, you might eventually point back to the Mormon jesus.
If I asked you where the Mormon jesus got his authority, you might point to the Mormon elohim.
If I asked you where the Mormon elohim got his authority, IF you were consistent with what Joseph Smith said, it would be some "head god" of a "council of gods":
Smith excerpt #1:
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
Smith excerpt #2:
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
According to Smith's worldview, "the heads of the Gods appointed one God for us." [Why, how nice, Jeff: You worship a god chosen by a bureaucracy at a committee meeting.]
So, Jeff, where did this "council of gods" and the "head of this council of gods" get its authority?
Whatever you want to say is the "Alpha point" of your authority...Smith says your god was a man. That he "was once as we are now." We already know from the above quote that the godhead came even AFTER the Mormon god was appointed. Certainly, the Mormon god was no "godhead" as a boy wonder.
Well, to delve even further into where the council of gods and the "head god" of that council got his authority, we need to look at one more Joseph Smith citation and one of his "apostles," Orson Pratt:
Smith excerpt #3: I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
Do you understand, Jeff, the magnitude of what's being said here? First, Smith said there's no end to one intelligence having been above another -- the teaching of infinite regression of gods. Then Smith is claiming that Jesus had a grandpa and great-grandpa: [Note after the first elipse below, no content has been removed]
...John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ
had a Father, [Jesus' grandpa on His Father's side]
you may suppose that He had a Father also. [Jesus' great-grandpa on His Father's side]
Finally, Smith claims that God the Father also laid down His life in some sort of redemptive way. Which means whatever "time" you want to leave undefined, DU, apparently God the Father had time enough to live as a man and die as a man for some whole other world.
Apostle Pratt showing us what he learned from either Smith or from the Mormon god:
We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father;
and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father,
and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds,
and as a last resort, we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten. But why does man seek for a first, when revelation informs him that God's works are without beginning? (Lds apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 132, 1853)
Bottom-line, here? Jeff, you have no ultimate god. You have no buck-stops-here god. There is NO alpha point god for you or any Mormon, authority-wise. You can't even tell me where you got your authority -- from whence it ultimately derived.
You have no authority to claim, because all authority has to come from an Original Source. And you don't know Him. He is your missing link.
Therefore, there is no "authority" to be had -- exclusively or otherwise -- by the Mormon church.
ALL: Jeff is telling all of us Christians that belong to non-Mormon sects -- Christian sects -- that we are "apostates" per Mormonism.
Well, this is quite in keeping with the topic of this thread...given that Muslims deem Christians as "infidels." (Hence, Islam and Lds are on the "same page" in sizing up Christians)
I recall a post by ex-Mormon Colorcountry that I cut & pasted and kept on record.
Here's what she said:
LOOK also at the many New Testament verses which speak of the Church as Christ's own body, such as Romans 12:1-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-27; Ephesians 3:4-6; 5:21-32; and Colossians 1:18. Since Christ is the mind and head of his Church (Eph. 4:15-16), animating the body, the members enjoy an organic spiritual union with him (John 15:1-8). It's inconceivable that he would permit his body to disintegrate under the attacks of Satan. The apostle John reminds us that Jesus is greater than Satan (1 John 4:4)(1 Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as "The household of God...the pillar and foundation of truth." In light of this, we find additional assurance that the house that Jesus built will not be pillaged by Satan. "No one can enter a strong man's house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then, he can plunder his house" (Mark 3:27; cf. Matt. 12:29). Jesus is the "strong man" guarding his household, the Church.)
And:
Although, tragically, the gates of hell can and do prevail over individual Christians who succumb to mortal sin and cut themselves off from life-giving union with Christ (Rom. 11:22; Gal. 5:4; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 1 John 5:16-17), they can't prevail against the Church Jesus built on the rock of Peter.(Jesus didn't command his followers to do things he himself couldn't do. "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on a rock. The rains fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on a rock" (Matt. 7:24- 25). It was no coincidence that Jesus used the words, "on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18; Luke 6:46-49). See also Hebrews 11:10 and 1 Peter 2:6-8.) If they could--if they did--Jesus is made to look foolish for having taught, "Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion? Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him and say, 'This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish'" (Luke 15:28-30).
My response was also to highlight other verses touting Jesus as the Ever-Present Master Church-Builder who prevails as the Strong Guardian of a Church that has never fully apostatized:
Ephesians 3:21: to him [God] be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
The apostle Paul's prophesy here is that ALL generations of the Church would (and have) given God glory, for ever and ever!
1 Timothy 4:1: The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. I would encourage ALL of us that we dare not stumble over that word "some" and read it the Holy Spirit's EXPRESS prophesy that the "later times" apostasy would only encompass "some" and not "all."
Bottom-line, Jeff: Whatever Scripture verses that you or other Lds come up with re: "apostasy" -- 'twas NEVER prophesied as a TOTAL, 100% apostasy. Eph. 3:21 and 1 Tim. 4:1 are but the most obvious examples.
We've had a couple of Lds FREEPERS who cut and pasted their list of "apostasy" Biblical verses from a Mormon concordance...and I dealt with that back then, too. You -- or other posters/lurkers -- can read below in case they are interested to see if the Mormons' linkages of these verses to claim some TOTAL apostasy are valid or invalid:
Matt. 13: 25 his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.
Look again at Matthew 13. Jesus talks about several groups of people here. Are some these groups unfaithful & fall away? (Yes) Do ALL of them (no). Therefore this passage doesn’t apply to a TOTAL apostasy...But that never stops poor Biblical interpretation processes by Mormon leaders & their minions, does it?
Gal. 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him.
The entirety of Galatians needs to be reviewed. Gal. 3:1 says who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey?
It's the LDS church that has done what the Galatians were doing, turning the good news of the gospel into a vast system of works, deeds, command-keeping, ritual-keeping of the flesh, etc: "v. 3, 5-6, 10: "Are you so foolish? After beginning w/the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?..Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Consider Abraham: 'He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'...'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.'"
Jude 3-4 ...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE delivered unto the saints.
OK. It kind of becomes obvious that the true faith only needed a SINGLE delivery…not a double dosage via a 14 yo kid.
2 Tim. 1: 15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me.
NIV says "province of Asia" and they "deserted" the apostle Paul...so everyone who aschewed some of the things McConkie wrote when he was LDS "apostle" (including LDS general authorities who had heartburn with much of what was included in the unapproved "Mormon Doctrine") is an apostate? Even if we say, "Yes, they all apostacized" this was provincial apostasy.
Amos 8: 11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Lds "apostle" Talmage says: this is a prediction when there should be no Church of Christ to be found What? First of all, the OT doesn’t even use the word “church” (Mormon ignorance coming out full-scale). Secondly, what? This is a claim of the Bible totally disappeared from the earth, too?
Isaiah 24:5: The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the cordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Did you happen to notice those last three words? (few men left). Few men left of what? (Habitants of earth, it says in v. 6). Beyond that, you should quote it in context starting with v. 1, where it says the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste…and scattered abroad the inhabitants thereof. In v. 4, it says The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth an dfadeth away… (Clearly Isaiah is talking about the entirety of the earth and all its inhabitants, not just God’s people in the church) [Talk about a pathetic attempt to indict the historic Church!]
BTW, I notice in LDS lists it "conveniently" skips over the OT passage of Daniel 2:44 (And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed...it will stand for ever.") and though Grig’s thread selection article cites Heb. 13:20, this LDS “apostle” conveniently skips over Hebrews 12:28 (Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved...). God's Kingdom delivered will stand for ever...it can't be shaken.
Talmage went on and added the normal lineup of passages on “apostasy” in the LDS KJV or Quad.
Matt. 24: 5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many.
OK, doesn’t an LDS “apostle” know the difference between the words “many” and “all?”
Matt. 24: 24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets.
Yes, so? It doesn’t say all of the prophets at that point will be “false” ones, does it?
Acts 20: 29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you.
I agree with this passage. Where does it say that these wolves would devour everyone in sight?
2 Thess. 2:3-4 In addressing the Thessalonian saints, Paul warns them against the error strongly advocated by some that the day of Christ's second advent was then near at hand.
So? Of course, some errorists and misguided folks cropped into the early church. Even Talmage says this applies only the “Thessalonian saints.” For those who think this applied to 18th & 19th century Christians (or before), note what the Joseph Smith supposedly “inspired” version (JST) says: “That man of sin…the son of perdition…exalteth himself above all…showing himself that he is God.” (2 Th. 2:4) [Any Mormon care to tell us who that is & when he has appeared in history? Ah, I thought not]
2 Tim. 3: 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power.
While Talmage references the entirety of the context (vv. 1-6), he then turns around and ignores it: 2 Tim. 3:6 says they have crept into “houses”!!!! (not the church!!!) 2 Tim. 3:1-2 says this is true of "last days...people." These "people" inhabit every structure: Homes, offices, churches of every stripe. But that doesn't mean they are primarily concentrated in Christian churches, now does it? (In fact, “church” or “church leaders” or “Christians” or “members” or anything like that isn’t even mentioned in these 6 verses!). So why are Mormons repeating the error of JoeSmith and offending all of us by applying this to being overly unbalanced re: our churches?
Talmage twists & distorts typical of LDS “apostles”: …here we find the Church sinking to the degraded level of a human institution, with plan of organization and mode of operation foreign to the constitution of the original, without priesthood or authority to officiate in spiritual ordinances, and devoid of the gifts and graces with which the Savior endowed His Church at the time of its establishment. In short, we find the Church itself apostate, boasting of temporal power, making its own laws, teaching its own dogmas, preserving only a form of godliness…
2 Tim. 4: 4 turn away their ears from the truth . . . unto fables.
At last, Talmage finally hits upon a serious widespread prob in the church. The prob, tho, is "id'd" in v. 3: "men will not put up w/sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great # of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." The main problem id'd here is grassroots' "itching ears" and not top-down authoritative creedal problems.
2 Pet. 2:1 false prophets also among the people.
Talmage at least cites the context (first three verses) but then promptly ignores it: v. 2: "Many will follow their shameful ways..." "Many!" (All? Not even close)
Rev. 13: 7 to make war with the saints.
OK. Nobody disagrees that there are real "saints" opposed by the devil. It says nothing that the reality of false "saints."
Rev. 14:6-7: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of His judgment is come; and worship Him that made heaven and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water."*
In Rev. 14:6, note that word “another” before the word angel. The preceding chapters in Revelation already had a number of angels…this was simply “another.” If this was fulfilled in 1827 as the Mormons contend, then when were the events preceding Rev. 14:6 fulfilled? Also, note vv. 8-9 where other angels followed. Where were these in Mormon history? Finally Rev. 14:7 says it’s a “message of judgment”…so are Mormons saying that the Mormon gospel is a “message of judgment?”
I will say it here loud and clear: Any Mormon who believes that every and all other members of different churches are automatically and inherently apostates of the faith, are liars and proclaimers of a false gospel!
A man once addressed Jesus as "Good teacher"...and Jesus immediately addressed that presumption.
He said: "'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good--except God alone.'" (Mark 10:18).
Jesus wasn't saying He personally wasn't good; but He was addressing the misguided presumption behind the comment: That man is good…[I believe Jesus is addressed man’s isness at root…]
Jesus levels the playing field before the cross by undercutting any spiritual pride that presumes anybody from any religion doesn’t need Him as our great physician ("It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have NOT COME to call the righteous, but sinners."--Matthew 9:12)
Jesus is for the person who understands their personal cancerous diagnosis of sin.
We're all spiritually unhealthy and depraved -- including your "good"…
…Mormons
…Christians
…Hindus
…Muslims
…other religions.
[Clarification on “depraved”: It doesn't mean being as bad as we can be; just that no part of our being is untouched by sin].
Yet that doesn't pre-empt people from all faiths accomplishing some degree of good works. I would quickly add, though, whatever “degree” that is, it’s vastly overstated. Why?
As you mentioned in post #65...
...* some folks do good works and give the credit for those works to God the Holy Spirit working through them – yet Christianity & some of the cults are usually the only ones who acknowledge the Holy Spirit to begin with;
* ...some folks do outwardly good works and assume the credit for themselves, stealing God's glory. Theft of God's glory thereby defeats any act otherwise qualifying itself as "good"...
...which leads us directly back to a basic Mormon premise: Temple Mormons (not all Mormons, but temple Mormons) are essentially auditioning for godhood with good works. And with that, I say, that’s a self-defeating proposition. When a boomerang motive underlies good works, those works become selfish, disqualifying in God’s eyes the “goodness” of that work. God sees the heart, not just the outward outcome.