ALL: Jeff is telling all of us Christians that belong to non-Mormon sects -- Christian sects -- that we are "apostates" per Mormonism.
Well, this is quite in keeping with the topic of this thread...given that Muslims deem Christians as "infidels." (Hence, Islam and Lds are on the "same page" in sizing up Christians)
I recall a post by ex-Mormon Colorcountry that I cut & pasted and kept on record.
Here's what she said:
LOOK also at the many New Testament verses which speak of the Church as Christ's own body, such as Romans 12:1-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-27; Ephesians 3:4-6; 5:21-32; and Colossians 1:18. Since Christ is the mind and head of his Church (Eph. 4:15-16), animating the body, the members enjoy an organic spiritual union with him (John 15:1-8). It's inconceivable that he would permit his body to disintegrate under the attacks of Satan. The apostle John reminds us that Jesus is greater than Satan (1 John 4:4)(1 Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as "The household of God...the pillar and foundation of truth." In light of this, we find additional assurance that the house that Jesus built will not be pillaged by Satan. "No one can enter a strong man's house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then, he can plunder his house" (Mark 3:27; cf. Matt. 12:29). Jesus is the "strong man" guarding his household, the Church.)
And:
Although, tragically, the gates of hell can and do prevail over individual Christians who succumb to mortal sin and cut themselves off from life-giving union with Christ (Rom. 11:22; Gal. 5:4; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 1 John 5:16-17), they can't prevail against the Church Jesus built on the rock of Peter.(Jesus didn't command his followers to do things he himself couldn't do. "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on a rock. The rains fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on a rock" (Matt. 7:24- 25). It was no coincidence that Jesus used the words, "on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18; Luke 6:46-49). See also Hebrews 11:10 and 1 Peter 2:6-8.) If they could--if they did--Jesus is made to look foolish for having taught, "Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion? Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him and say, 'This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish'" (Luke 15:28-30).
My response was also to highlight other verses touting Jesus as the Ever-Present Master Church-Builder who prevails as the Strong Guardian of a Church that has never fully apostatized:
Ephesians 3:21: to him [God] be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
The apostle Paul's prophesy here is that ALL generations of the Church would (and have) given God glory, for ever and ever!
1 Timothy 4:1: The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. I would encourage ALL of us that we dare not stumble over that word "some" and read it the Holy Spirit's EXPRESS prophesy that the "later times" apostasy would only encompass "some" and not "all."
Bottom-line, Jeff: Whatever Scripture verses that you or other Lds come up with re: "apostasy" -- 'twas NEVER prophesied as a TOTAL, 100% apostasy. Eph. 3:21 and 1 Tim. 4:1 are but the most obvious examples.
We've had a couple of Lds FREEPERS who cut and pasted their list of "apostasy" Biblical verses from a Mormon concordance...and I dealt with that back then, too. You -- or other posters/lurkers -- can read below in case they are interested to see if the Mormons' linkages of these verses to claim some TOTAL apostasy are valid or invalid:
Matt. 13: 25 his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.
Look again at Matthew 13. Jesus talks about several groups of people here. Are some these groups unfaithful & fall away? (Yes) Do ALL of them (no). Therefore this passage doesn’t apply to a TOTAL apostasy...But that never stops poor Biblical interpretation processes by Mormon leaders & their minions, does it?
Gal. 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him.
The entirety of Galatians needs to be reviewed. Gal. 3:1 says who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey?
It's the LDS church that has done what the Galatians were doing, turning the good news of the gospel into a vast system of works, deeds, command-keeping, ritual-keeping of the flesh, etc: "v. 3, 5-6, 10: "Are you so foolish? After beginning w/the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?..Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Consider Abraham: 'He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'...'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.'"
Jude 3-4 ...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE delivered unto the saints.
OK. It kind of becomes obvious that the true faith only needed a SINGLE delivery…not a double dosage via a 14 yo kid.
2 Tim. 1: 15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me.
NIV says "province of Asia" and they "deserted" the apostle Paul...so everyone who aschewed some of the things McConkie wrote when he was LDS "apostle" (including LDS general authorities who had heartburn with much of what was included in the unapproved "Mormon Doctrine") is an apostate? Even if we say, "Yes, they all apostacized" this was provincial apostasy.
Amos 8: 11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Lds "apostle" Talmage says: this is a prediction when there should be no Church of Christ to be found What? First of all, the OT doesn’t even use the word “church” (Mormon ignorance coming out full-scale). Secondly, what? This is a claim of the Bible totally disappeared from the earth, too?
Isaiah 24:5: The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the cordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Did you happen to notice those last three words? (few men left). Few men left of what? (Habitants of earth, it says in v. 6). Beyond that, you should quote it in context starting with v. 1, where it says the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste…and scattered abroad the inhabitants thereof. In v. 4, it says The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth an dfadeth away… (Clearly Isaiah is talking about the entirety of the earth and all its inhabitants, not just God’s people in the church) [Talk about a pathetic attempt to indict the historic Church!]
BTW, I notice in LDS lists it "conveniently" skips over the OT passage of Daniel 2:44 (And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed...it will stand for ever.") and though Grig’s thread selection article cites Heb. 13:20, this LDS “apostle” conveniently skips over Hebrews 12:28 (Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved...). God's Kingdom delivered will stand for ever...it can't be shaken.
Talmage went on and added the normal lineup of passages on “apostasy” in the LDS KJV or Quad.
Matt. 24: 5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many.
OK, doesn’t an LDS “apostle” know the difference between the words “many” and “all?”
Matt. 24: 24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets.
Yes, so? It doesn’t say all of the prophets at that point will be “false” ones, does it?
Acts 20: 29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you.
I agree with this passage. Where does it say that these wolves would devour everyone in sight?
2 Thess. 2:3-4 In addressing the Thessalonian saints, Paul warns them against the error strongly advocated by some that the day of Christ's second advent was then near at hand.
So? Of course, some errorists and misguided folks cropped into the early church. Even Talmage says this applies only the “Thessalonian saints.” For those who think this applied to 18th & 19th century Christians (or before), note what the Joseph Smith supposedly “inspired” version (JST) says: “That man of sin…the son of perdition…exalteth himself above all…showing himself that he is God.” (2 Th. 2:4) [Any Mormon care to tell us who that is & when he has appeared in history? Ah, I thought not]
2 Tim. 3: 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power.
While Talmage references the entirety of the context (vv. 1-6), he then turns around and ignores it: 2 Tim. 3:6 says they have crept into “houses”!!!! (not the church!!!) 2 Tim. 3:1-2 says this is true of "last days...people." These "people" inhabit every structure: Homes, offices, churches of every stripe. But that doesn't mean they are primarily concentrated in Christian churches, now does it? (In fact, “church” or “church leaders” or “Christians” or “members” or anything like that isn’t even mentioned in these 6 verses!). So why are Mormons repeating the error of JoeSmith and offending all of us by applying this to being overly unbalanced re: our churches?
Talmage twists & distorts typical of LDS “apostles”: …here we find the Church sinking to the degraded level of a human institution, with plan of organization and mode of operation foreign to the constitution of the original, without priesthood or authority to officiate in spiritual ordinances, and devoid of the gifts and graces with which the Savior endowed His Church at the time of its establishment. In short, we find the Church itself apostate, boasting of temporal power, making its own laws, teaching its own dogmas, preserving only a form of godliness…
2 Tim. 4: 4 turn away their ears from the truth . . . unto fables.
At last, Talmage finally hits upon a serious widespread prob in the church. The prob, tho, is "id'd" in v. 3: "men will not put up w/sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great # of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." The main problem id'd here is grassroots' "itching ears" and not top-down authoritative creedal problems.
2 Pet. 2:1 false prophets also among the people.
Talmage at least cites the context (first three verses) but then promptly ignores it: v. 2: "Many will follow their shameful ways..." "Many!" (All? Not even close)
Rev. 13: 7 to make war with the saints.
OK. Nobody disagrees that there are real "saints" opposed by the devil. It says nothing that the reality of false "saints."
Rev. 14:6-7: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of His judgment is come; and worship Him that made heaven and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water."*
In Rev. 14:6, note that word “another” before the word angel. The preceding chapters in Revelation already had a number of angels…this was simply “another.” If this was fulfilled in 1827 as the Mormons contend, then when were the events preceding Rev. 14:6 fulfilled? Also, note vv. 8-9 where other angels followed. Where were these in Mormon history? Finally Rev. 14:7 says it’s a “message of judgment”…so are Mormons saying that the Mormon gospel is a “message of judgment?”
I will say it here loud and clear: Any Mormon who believes that every and all other members of different churches are automatically and inherently apostates of the faith, are liars and proclaimers of a false gospel!
Bears repeating.