Mormons opening up in an Internet world [& Losing members accordingly]

Deseret News ^ | Feb. 1, 2012 | Michael DeGroote

[Colofornian]

Richard L. Bushman...wrote in 2005 "Rough Stone Rolling..." "I first became aware of the problems shortly after 'Rough Stone Rolling' came out...I thought I was getting these emails asking for help..."

Then Bushman heard that many other scholars were also being beset with queries from members of the LDS Church who had encountered something on the Internet that had shaken their faith. He began to hear the same thing from ordinary Mormons who had friends or family who were having problems. He also heard from people at BYU how it was a problem there as well. People were encountering things about church history and losing their faith...

"I've been aware that the LDS Church has been concerned about this for quite a while," he said...

Reuters recently wrote about a question and answer session at Utah State University with LDS Church historian Elder Marlin K. Jensen. Jensen acknowledged some people are surprised and troubled by what they read...

SNIP

He told Reuters there have been more attrition over the last five or ten years..."I think we are at a time of challenge," he told Reuters...

SNIP

John Dehlin...executive director of the Open Stories Foundation. The foundation conducted a survey that Dehlin said suggests disaffections have trended upward the last three to six years...like Peterson and Bushman, Dehlin said the number of people contacting him about having doubts has "grown exponentially."

SNIP

Peterson said...that people discover this or that historical fact they had never heard before. They then feel like the church had been hiding the fact and so lose a sense of trust.

Bushman said it is important that people in the church do not reject those who have questions. "That is the problem," Bushman said. "They think nobody in the church thinks about anything..."

[Colofornian]

This newspaper is owned by the Mormon church.

#1 Per this article, Lds Scholar Richard Bushman has noticed a significant uptick with Mormon having historical problems over the past half-dozen years or so.
#2 This is reinforced by Lds church historian Marlin Jensen, who per the article: He told Reuters there have been more attrition over the last five or ten years..."I think we are at a time of challenge," he told Reuters...
#3 From the article: The Open Stories Foundation "conducted a survey that Dehlin said suggests disaffections have trended upward the last three to six years...

What are the key sources for Mormon heartburn that's removing their "burning bosoms?"

(a) The Internet: From the article: ...Bushman heard that many other scholars were also being beset with queries from members of the LDS Church who had encountered something on the Internet that had shaken their faith. He began to hear the same thing from ordinary Mormons who had friends or family who were having problems. He also heard from people at BYU how it was a problem there as well. People were encountering things about church history and losing their faith...

Mormons: You're not alone...re: these doubts in Mormonism. You can have the REAL, Ultimate God revealed unto you. But you're not alone...leave the Mormon church.

(b) History of Mormonism/Joseph Smith: From the article: Reuters recently wrote about a question and answer session at Utah State University with LDS Church historian Elder Marlin K. Jensen. Jensen acknowledged some people are surprised and troubled by what they read...

From the article: Peterson said...that people discover this or that historical fact they had never heard before. They then feel like the church had been hiding the fact and so lose a sense of trust.

[Colofornian]

From the article: I thought I was getting these emails asking for help..." Then Bushman heard that many other scholars were also being beset with queries from members of the LDS Church who had encountered something on the Internet that had shaken their faith. He began to hear the same thing from ordinary Mormons who had friends or family who were having problems...Bushman said it is important that people in the church do not reject those who have questions. "That is the problem," Bushman said. "They think nobody in the church thinks about anything..."

So...the Mormon church and its leadership has been besieged by historical (& probably doctrinal) questions since around 2005. So, you would think they took Bushman's advice and "stepped it up" in providing people to answer those questions, right?

WRONG!!!

One criteria of a cult it: THOUGHT CONTROL, PLACING SHARP LIMITS ON DOCTRINAL QUESTIONING.

Here's a sampling from Mormon automaton thought from 1899-->2010!

Circa October 2010:
It's Oct. 24, 2010. Just weeks earlier, the Lds faithful had gathered for one of their two key 'y'all" come meetings in Salt Lake City, which are fed via satellite around the world to Mormons who can't make the trek to SLC. You would have thought that if an earth-shaking announcement needed to be made, it would have been made there. It wasn't. Perhaps too much media glare was on the conference. Therefore, more quietly, Lds leadership sent a world-wide circular letter to all church members. Here's two sources for that:
Source 1: Quit pestering us, church leaders tell membership in letter
Source 2 -- from a Mormon columnist, Robert Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me

From the first source:
On October 24th, the LDS First Presidency (led by Prophet Thomas S. Monson) wrote several letters that were to be read in Mormon Sunday services around the world. According to examiner.com, the first letter was “likely spurred by Boyd K. Packer’s most recent General Conference talk entitled ‘Cleansing the Inner Vessel.’ Church Headquarters has been receiving an increased amount of correspondence from its members about doctrinal issues. Because of this influx of correspondence, the First Presidency reminded and encouraged LDS church members to utilize their local church authorities – bishops, branch presidents, stake presidents, etc — before resorting to contacting Church Headquarters.” In other words, the Mormon laity was told to quit bothering their church leadership on issues related to doctrine. We can only wonder why the church is apparently receiving so many inquiries.

From the second source (Kirby): With only partial tongue in cheek, Kirby said: "According to the First Presidency’s letter, members with real doctrinal concerns were to seek the counsel of our local leaders — stake president, bishop, Scoutmaster, building custodian, etc."

Why? Well, per Kirby: "The letter...told/counseled rank-and-file Mormons to stop pestering church headquarters for clarification of church doctrine. Apparently some members get so stressed about the finer points of doctrine that they’ll fire off a letter asking for the final word. Church HQ can’t handle the demand...

There ya go. Just as the Wall Street Journal writer said: "placing sharp limits on doctrinal questioning" [Many an Lds historian has commented on this as well...do your own Google search with the words "faith promoting" in quotations...add the words "historian" and "Lds" to the search for better specific results]

[Happy Rain]

Harry Reid and Glenn Beck says it all for me.

[Happy Rain]

Oh, how could I forget Mitt Romney?

[Zakeet]

Here are a few of the things that true believing Mormons are not supposed to ask their leaders about ...

1. The Book of Mormon: the "most correct of any book on earth" containing stories of mass migrations in submarine barges, snakes herding cattle, American Indians smelting steel and riding about in horse drawn chariots, and so much, much more.

2. The Book of Abraham: Joseph's translation completely debunked by Egyptologists. The poor guy missed the author of the document, the purpose for the document, and every single word contained in the document.

3. The Failed Prophesies: dozens to choose from including such gems as the violent overthrow of the United States in the 1830's, to the second coming of Christ sometime before 1891, to the discovery of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel living in cement houses in a valley near the North Pole, to the finding the moon is inhabited by men dressed like Quakers, to the prediction the earth has knobs on each end. Joseph wasn't afraid go for broke. And he got there time and time again.

4. The First Vision: or more specifically, the nine different versions of the first vision; or ten if you include the Salamander account pronounced genuine by LDS Church leadership.

5. The 1826 Bainbridge Conviction for Fraud: the Conquistador's gold was really down there on that farm in Northern Pennsylvania. It wasn't Joseph's fault the farmer dug so slowly the ground opened up and kept swallowing the treasure.

6. The Book of Commandments / Doctrine and Covenants: supposedly dictated to the prophet by Mormonism's god, but changed thousands of times and still replete with examples of false statements and contradictions with other Mormon scripture.

7. The Kirtland Safety Society: Joseph preceded the Enron scandal by 170 years with what was for years the largest financial fraud in U.S. history (and still one of the most blatant). This happened shortly after Mormonism's god promised the banking institution, "like Aaron's rod shall swallow up all other banks … and grow and flourish and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins."

8. The United Order: Rigdon talked Smith into trying communism about 30 years or so before Marx and Engels. The Saints got the same economic results as other “workers’ paradises” such as the Soviet Union, Cuba and North Korea. The Saints eventually abandoned this commandment in favor of “the law of tithing” even though the United Order was proclaimed to be “an everlasting order for the benefit of my church, and for the salvation of men until I [Jesus] come.”

9. The Garden of Eden located in Independence, Missouri: This was the place where Adam and Eve were given Sacred Temple Garments (long johns with secret Masonic symbols) to cover their nakedness after they were expelled from paradise.

10. The Kinderhook Plates: a hoax by evil gentiles who took pieces of brass, and then inspired by the characters on a box of Chinese green tea, etched strange markings on them with acid. Joseph pronounced the artifacts genuine and determined they contained information about a descendant of Ham.

11. Doctrine & Covenants Section 132: polygamy as a result of a "new and everlasting covenant … [and] if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory." This revelation convinced more than thirty women, many in their teens and several married to other men, to share Joseph's celestial bed. And it ruined the lives of thousands of his devout followers. And exactly how does one get rid of something that is “everlasting”? The LDS Church has been trying to figure that one out since the Federal Government almost put them out of business in 1887.

12. The Science of Kolob: the Sun borrows its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, and other stars receive their power through the revolutions of Kolob. Similarly, the earth receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam.

13. Salvation through Joseph: or more specifically, the idea no one receives exaltation without recognizing Smith is a prophet of god and will pass before him in order to gain entry to the highest kingdom of heaven.

14. The Eternal Progression: As man now is, god once was. As god now is, man may become.

15. I'm greater than Jesus: Joseph's pompous boast made on May 26, 1844. Less than a month later, the vain prophet Joseph Smith was thrown down exactly as he prophesied.

Personally, I don't understand why the LDS authorities are so reticent to answer these simple challenges ... or hundreds more like them. Perhaps some Saint somewhere can read this thread and shine a light?\.

[NewJerseyJoe]

My first exposure to Momonism, years ago, was from reading Zane Grey’s “Riders of the Purple Sage.” Although that is fiction, all the facts I’ve read in the ensuing years have backed up and reinforced the phoniness of this “religion.” I have long said that Mormonism was the blueprint for Scientology.

[svcw]

Bushman said it is important that people in the church do not reject those who have questions.

"So we will just answer the questions that should have been asked. Change the subject or just lie out right." That's how we (the leadership) will deal with questions. (eye roll)

[JudgemAll]

I usually preach that if they are not against us like Obama, they are for us.

However satan is poised to make a mockery of
Christians through the lack of confidence other
faithes have when facing the “Universe Pope of Sciece”

Sadly, why would people of science turn to Islam which is all against?

Money, politics and sins of selling these new
products to any savage out there is tantalizing.
They will sell the ropes with which we will hang or shackle them with.

[Colofornian]

Two other similar articles posted today:
* Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining
* Special report -Mormonism besieged by the modern age [Lds church is hemorrhaging in member losses]

[JudgemAll]

Liberals like Lewis Sinclaire love to brag how
Mormins, unlike Christians, are the only
religion born without blood shed.

This is why Romeny is a socialist, not paying heed
to the blood of tax payers paying for the sins
of others.

This is terrible. Mormons as a result are much
like the Time Machine characters of HG Wells.

They are depressed and none are chivalrous, but
cold and cowardly, prone to narcissism.

[Elsie]

"I think we are at a time of challenge," he told Reuters...

Yes!

CHRISTIANS (Bible literate ones) have HAD it and are fighting back with INFORMATION!

Deal with it!

[Elsie]

One criteria of a cult it: THOUGHT CONTROL, PLACING SHARP LIMITS ON DOCTRINAL QUESTIONING.

---

 

 

Eerily familiar...

 

 

Party ownership of the print media
made it easy to manipulate public opinion,
and the film and radio carried the process further.

 

16. Ministry Of Truth

.......

The Ministry of Truth, Winston's place of work, contained, it was said, three thousand rooms above ground level, and corresponding ramifications below.

The Ministry of Truth concerned itself with Lies. Party ownership of the print media made it easy to manipulate public opinion, and the film and radio carried the process further.

The primary job of the Ministry of Truth was to supply the citizens of Oceania with newspapers, films, textbooks, telescreen programmes, plays, novels - with every conceivable kind of information, instruction, or entertainment, from a statue to a slogan, from a lyric poem to a biological treatise, and from a child's spelling-book to a Newspeak dictionary.

Winston worked in the RECORDS DEPARTMENT (a single branch of the Ministry of Truth) editing and writing for The Times. He dictated into a machine called a speakwrite. Winston would receive articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to alter, or, in Newspeak, rectify. If, for example, the Ministry of Plenty forecast a surplus, and in reality the result was grossly less, Winston's job was to change previous versions so the old version would agree with the new one. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs - to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance.

When his day's work started, Winston pulled the speakwrite towards him, blew the dust from its mouthpiece, and put on his spectacles. He dialed 'back numbers' on the telescreen and called for the appropriate issues of The Times, which slid out of the pneumatic tube after only a few minutes' delay. The messages he had received referred to articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to rectify.

In the walls of the cubicle there were three orifices. To the right of the speakwrite, a small pneumatic tube for written messages; to the left, a larger one for newspapers; and on the side wall, within easy reach of Winston's arm, a large oblong slit protected by a wire grating. This last was for the disposal of waste paper. Similar slits existed in thousands or tens of thousands throughout the building, not only in every room but at short intervals in every corridor. For some reason they were nicknamed memory holes. When one knew that any document was due for destruction, or even when one saw a scrap of waste paper lying about, it was an automatic action to lift the flap of the nearest memory hole and drop it in, whereupon it would be whirled away on a current of warm air to the enormous furnaces which were hidden somewhere in the recesses of the building.

As soon as Winston had dealt with each of the messages, he clipped his speakwritten corrections to the appropriate copy of The Times and pushed them into the pneumatic tube. Then, with a movement which was as nearly as possible unconscious, he crumpled up the original message and any notes that he himself had made, and dropped them into the memory hole to be devoured by the flames.

What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead.

In the cubicle next to him the little woman with sandy hair toiled day in day out, simply at tracking down and deleting from the Press the names of people who had been vaporized and were therefore considered never to have existed. And this hall, with its fifty workers or thereabouts, was only one-sub-section, a single cell, as it were, in the huge complexity of the Records Department. Beyond, above, below, were other swarms of workers engaged in an unimaginable multitude of jobs.

There were huge printing-shops and their sub editors, their typography experts, and their elaborately equipped studios for the faking of photographs. There was the tele-programmes section with its engineers, its producers and its teams of actors specially chosen for their skill in imitating voices; clerks whose job was simply to draw up lists of books and periodicals which were due for recall; vast repositories where the corrected documents were stored; and the hidden furnaces where the original copies were destroyed.

And somewhere or other, quite anonymous, there were the directing brains who co-ordinated the whole effort and laid down the lines of policy which made it necessary that this fragment of the past should be preserved, that one falsified, and the other rubbed out of existence.

 

 

[Elsie]

...headquarters in SLC is also being beset with queries from members of the LDS Church who had encountered something on the Internet that had shaken their faith.

DAMN you Inmen!!

[Elsie]

I'm greater than Jesus: Joseph's pompous boast made on May 26, 1844. Less than a month later, the vain prophet Joseph Smith was thrown down exactly as he prophesied.

---

JESUS: Hey Smith!       Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?

JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?

JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?

JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!

JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.

JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!

JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.

JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.

JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?

JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)

JESUS: That's it.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: Nah - it was right.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.

JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.

JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!

JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?

JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....

JESUS: What did you say?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.

JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.

JESUS: No...

JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?

JESUS: Nope.

JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!

JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: No; it wasn't.

JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?

JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?

JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.

JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.

JOSEPH SMITH: But.... 

[Elsie]

...cold and cowardly, prone to narcissism.

Ya think?

---

Narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by dramatic, emotional behavior, in the same category as antisocial and borderline personality disorders.

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

* Believing that you’re better than others
* Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
* Exaggerating your achievements or talents
* Expecting constant praise and admiration
* Believing that you’re special and acting accordingly
* Failing to recognize other people’s emotions and feelings
* Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
* Taking advantage of others
* Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
* Being jealous of others
* Believing that others are jealous of you
* Trouble keeping healthy relationships
* Setting unrealistic goals
* Being easily hurt and rejected
* Having a fragile self-esteem
* Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

Although some features of narcissistic personality disorder may seem like having confidence or strong self-esteem, it’s not the same. Narcissistic personality disorder crosses the border of healthy confidence and self-esteem into thinking so highly of yourself that you put yourself on a pedestal. In contrast, people who have healthy confidence and self-esteem don’t value themselves more than they value others.

When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may have a sense of entitlement. And when you don’t receive the special treatment to which you feel entitled, you may become very impatient or angry. You may insist on having “the best” of everything — the best car, athletic club, medical care or social circles, for instance.

[Elsie]

Party ownership of the print media
made it easy to manipulate public opinion,
and the film and radio carried the process further.

[Elsie]

 

MORMON

ATTITUDES OF SUPERIORITY

 

  1. I’m Superior; I have a special gift of the holy Ghost -- you don’t!
  2. I’m Superior; I have God’s true priesthood power -- you don’t!
  3. I’m Superior; I can go in God’s secret Temple -- you can’t!
  4. I’m Superior; I’ve been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- you’re just normal!
  5. I’m Superior; I’ll have my family with me in heaven -- you’ll be with strangers!
  6. I’m Superior; I’m becoming a God -- you aren’t!
  7. I’m Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours don’t.
  8. I’m Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures).
  9. I’m Superior; I don’t HAVE a creed - I’ve got 13 Articles of Faith.
10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly.
11. I’m Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. —                           -- You can’t.
12. I’m Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics -- 

                           -- You’re a hideous narrow-minded bigot, who is persecuting me by practicing discrimination by saying I'm not a Christian.
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't.
14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't
15. I’m Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself.
16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't.
17. I’m Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you don’t.
18. I’m Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you don’t ;so you can’t.
19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't.
20. I’m Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably                              -- You’re on your own; when you get to wherever you’re going!
21. I’m Superior; I’m going to hie to Kolob -- you’re going to who knows where.
22. I’m Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you don’t.
23. I’m Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple

                            -- You have nothing but a stupid cross.
24. I’m Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty.
25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy  (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!)

26.  I'm superior; I have the "higher law" -- everyone else "lives under the "lesser law' because I say so...(over and over).

 

 

Revision 46.5

Semi-Official creed of the EXclusive club of Freeper Flying Inmans.

All rights liable to be abused.

[dimeadozen]

Truth hurts

[annieokie]

This is all good news to wake up to.

Looks like the internet was made of this time,to enlighten

FR was created for just this purpose, to enlighten

MITT ROMNEY has arrived for just this time, to save the day for the LDS.

If Mitt is elected president, people will FLOCK to LDS, just for the curosity of the cult. Just sad, robot minds.

[annieokie]

Now who does that remind me of?? It will come to me, oh yeah!!

MITT ROMNEY tied with Obama.