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1 posted on 12/30/2011 7:07:32 PM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21

The question is intertwined.

The scriptures are, in way, self-authoritative, not waiting for a church body to make them so. And they were recognized as such much earlier than many realize. For example, in I Timothy 5:18, Paul says, “for the scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,’ and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”

Well the first quote is from the book of Deuteronomy in the Old Testament, but the second quote is from the book of Luke in the New Testament (Luke 10:7), indicating that the book of Luke was already regarded as Scripture. Again, in II Peter 3:15b-16, Peter writes: “So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.” In other words, at the time that Peter was writing, the writings of Paul were regarded as Scripture.

(next post, on the beginning of the church)


66 posted on 12/30/2011 8:54:42 PM PST by Engraved-on-His-hands
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To: rzman21
A fascinating read from a perspective not often heard from. Quite learned.
73 posted on 12/30/2011 9:18:25 PM PST by danielmryan
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To: rzman21

Excellent article again.

Yes, I did actually read it all. :)

Hope to read it again after my trip...


75 posted on 12/30/2011 9:21:14 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: rzman21

And the significance of the answer would be?


82 posted on 12/30/2011 9:52:58 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: rzman21
I'm trying to figure out your motivation.

Are you Orthodox Christian?

Please share with us.

I found the article intriguing.

Perhaps, I have more orthodox leanings than I realized.

85 posted on 12/30/2011 10:05:13 PM PST by right way right (What's it gonna take?)
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To: rzman21

Long but good. I’ll have to come back and read the parts I skipped.


90 posted on 12/30/2011 10:37:13 PM PST by Freedom_Is_Not_Free (Repealing Obamacare is the ONLY GOAL.)
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To: rzman21

It is constructive coversation that is so much needed.


100 posted on 12/31/2011 4:10:05 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: rzman21

Interesting Stuff! I will read later going to Mass.


102 posted on 12/31/2011 5:17:21 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: rzman21
Also see FF Bruce's The New Testament Documents, Are They Reliable. Somewhere I have a very nice letter from that author in response to one I sent him on the subject of modern translations and why some people shy away from them. Bruce Metzger's The Text of the New Testament, Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 4th ed. is quite good.
120 posted on 12/31/2011 7:38:46 AM PST by aruanan
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To: rzman21

Thank you again for your recent posts. It is good to have robust and well argued Orthodox presence on this forum.


148 posted on 12/31/2011 9:52:14 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: rzman21

I have watched recently a number of programs which posed questions regarding the NT, such as, who wrote the gospels, when were they written and which were chosen and which were rejected.

One program discounted the nativity stories and said that the authors contrived some things in order to boost their claim that Jesus is the Messiah.

So, whom do we trust? How do we know that what we have is what God wants us to have? Like the author, I was intrigued by the fact that so many books were excluded and how the eventual canon was declared.

I found my questions answered and so place my trust in the Church. I trust the authority that Scripture says Christ gave His Church.


153 posted on 12/31/2011 10:37:06 AM PST by Jvette
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To: rzman21

This will of course be rejected by those who think the last thing that Jesus did before the Ascension was to hand several bound copies of the King James Version of the Bible (with all of His quotes in red text) to the Apostles to use as their only reference to His teachings.


155 posted on 12/31/2011 11:07:17 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: rzman21
I would just go with The Apostle Paul's advice. He dealt with tremendous controversies regarding Christ's teachings and the way Christians taught and followed those teachings.

He simply said (and I'm paraphrasing), "As for me, I preach Christ crucified."

At least I think it was Paul that said that. I confess I don't read or study The Bible nearly as much as I should.

But I have a question for you that I've always wanted to ask a Jewish person.

Obviously, Jews do not believe Jesus is The Messiah but they do believe a Messiah is coming.

My question is this: How do Jews expect The Messiah to be treated and what sort of signs do they expect to see and hear that will convince that The Messiah is The Messiah?

Again, I'm not a Bible scholar, but I've just generally accepted what I've been told over the years. Namely, that all the prophecies in The Old Testament concerning the coming of The Messiah, were fulfilled with the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Am I wrong? Will The Messiah that Jews believe is yet to come be born the way Jesus was born? Will He live the way Jesus lived? Will He did the way Jesus died? Will He be resurrected the way Jesus was resurrected?

Feel free to begin a new thread if you find it necessary. I'm not trying to hijack this one. It's just that I've always wondered about this but I've never had the nerve to ask.

242 posted on 01/01/2012 10:24:19 AM PST by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: rzman21
Your character Fr. Bernstein didn't convert to Christianity. he converted to Catholisism. Now he's simply promoting Catholisim and Roman Catholic doctrine in preference to what God said as it was written in the N.T. Gospels by those that knew and lived with Him.

The very idea that God created and gave some particular people, who are members of a particular organization the keys to the kingdom is repugnant to all that He taught. Every individual holds their own set of keys and is the master of their own destiny, not anyone else's. It was Peter's faith in God Jesus/God spoke of, that's something Bernstein's organisation desires to take away from folks, to be replaced by faith in their own special and priveledged group of men.

The New Testamnet Gospels are the only fixed reference that was given by God directly and written by those that knew Him. All else is to be compared to those Gospels, including what ANY particular man, or organization says. You either have faith in what God says, or faith in what some other man says. That requires judgments and decisions to be made, by individuals, which are the essence of the keys.

Bernstein's intent is to replace the reference of the New Testament Gospels, with the various references provided by a particular organization of men. One that claims exclusive powers given from God, including those that are and have always been God's alone.

380 posted on 01/04/2012 12:28:38 PM PST by spunkets
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