Thief on the Cross - Heaven Bound or Purgatory Bound

Bible | 2011 | BibleTruth

[bibletruth]

Was the thief in Luke 23 heaven (paradise) bound or purgatory bound?

Luke 23:41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[Cronos]

"brings up a very good proof" -- actually the death of the good thief has no relevance to final sanctification as Christ promised him that when still under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was sealed with Christ's sacrifice.

the good theif would have been in Sheol under the old Covenant, yet we see that Christ's promised him paradise - because Christ ended the old covenant and took those righteous up to heaven.

the death of the theif is related to the ending of the old covenant, not relevant to the structure of the new.

[TPOOH]

In a sense there were always “protestants”......they were being killed by rulers - secular and religious. You can read all about it in Foxes Book of Martyrs.

[verga]

In a sense there were always “protestants” Heretics denying the truth of the Catholic faith......they were being killed by rulers - secular and religious. You can read all The protestant lies that have been completely debunked buy real historians in Foxes Book of Martyrs.

[RegulatorCountry]

If this is your view of Purgatory, it's incorrect. Those in Purgatory are heaven-bound, that judgement has already been made, no second chance needed.

Then praying for the dead in purgatory serves what purpose?

[RegulatorCountry]

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised).

Paul was rebuking the church at Corinth for having a very inflated view of the rite of baptism as far as meaning and import, and he rather directed them to the reality of union with Christ that the rite represents (Romans 6:3-4), which is not by water but by spirit.

That the Corinthians held such an inflated view of baptism, which is obvious from the context of the rest of I Corinthians, leads to the question of the passage you cite, I Corinthians 15:29. Paraphrasing, the Apostle Paul asks "Who is it among you at Corinth that is practicing baptism for the dead, does this practice come from anything I've taught?" Continuing this theme of rebuke, there were also those at Corinth who were denying resurrection of the dead. "How say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"

Paul was rebuking false teaching when he mentioned belief in baptism of the dead, just as he was rebuking false teaching when he mentioned belief that there was no resurrection of the dead. It's also clear from the language that Paul excluded himself from among those advocating such a practice, "what shall they do which are baptized for the dead ..."

It's reasonable, then, to wonder just who "they" might be, to whom Paul refers. It's actually the same false teachers at Corinth who were also teaching that there was no resurrection of the dead. To cite Tertullian, "His only aim in alluding to it was that he might all the more firmly insist upon the resurrection of the body, in proportion as they who were vainly baptized for the dead resorted to the practice from their belief of such a resurrection."

The rituals and doctrines of these "some among you" at Corinth were not that which they were taught, Paul denies teaching it to them, and endeavors to point out that the beliefs are inconsistent with one another. Why baptise the dead if there is no resurrection? That is the point Paul puts across there. He does not advocate it and disavows ever having preached it.

So, a rebuke by Paul of this belief does not support purgatory, johngrace.

[verga]

Paul was rebuking the church at Corinth for having a very inflated view of the rite of baptism as far as meaning and import, and he rather directed them to the reality of union with Christ that the rite represents (Romans 6:3-4), which is not by water but by spirit.

1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Do you have this verse in your Bible?

Seems pretty clear that Baptism is pretty important since that is what you.

Jesus gave us this to draw us into union/ communion with Him.

Now I have read the Bible cover to cover and i don't see a single verse about the sinners prayer or how that will save you. Can you cite it for me?

[gghd]

>The mystery of Christ's life, suffering & death. In God's Mercy, He permits us to suffer with Jesus Christ. Colossians1: 24 ‘Now, I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filing up what is lacking in the affliction of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church.’
>There were -three- people on calvary. The good thief joined his sufferings to Christ & the bad thief cursed Christ & died. The mystery of God's Mercy: Jesus Christ pays off -the tab- in full BUT he lets us share in the payment. ‘Without God I can't & without me he will not.’
>Simon the Cyrene teaches us that there is ‘NO free ride in Christianity.’ We all get to help Jesus Christ carry his Cross. We call it ‘our’ Cross but everything belongs to God> we join our sufferings to the True Cross.
>Purgatory is the place where our souls are finally perfected to enable us to stand before the Perfection of God. In your response, you acknowledge a need for a final purification of most souls. The Church calls the place where it happens> Purgatory. It's explained on the Internet & it is biblical. Purgatory is a ‘suburb’ in Heaven & is not a separate place. Heaven exists in the Heart of God = Heaven is a big place.
>Christ suffered & died & then rose from the dead on the third day. The Gospel Truth, John 20: 17 ‘Jesus said to her, Stop holding on to me, for I have NOT yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, I am going to the Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ In my first comment I said, -Jesus didn't walk the Earth handing out Bibles saying, -Argue about this- rather He built a Church & out of the Church came the Bible. Please, look to the Church for the explanation of ‘Today you will be with me in Paradise.’
The Catholic definition of the Christian Virtue of Hope: ...it makes a person desire eternal life... >Ordinary hope is the desire to obtain a future good. Hope is a word used on purpose to describe a desire for a future good. TRUE Salvation for the individual is at the end of this life & the beginning of the next. >The Day of Universal Judgment will be a very interesting day. Have Hope as God gave us Holy Mother our Church, the body of Jesus Christ, to help us get into Heaven.

[RegulatorCountry]

Peter speaks symbolically of baptism just as Paul contends in I Corinthians, verga. Were the occupants of the ark baptized by virtue of being guided safely through the water? Does Peter speak mechanically of the rite of baptism, as if the act alone has the power of salvation?

No, according to your cite, he elaborates that baptism saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body (not dependent upon a physical act that men can undertake) but as an appeal to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is this that Paul rebuked the "some among you" at Corinth for overlooking, allowing a mechanical, almost magical belief in the ritual of baptism to overshadow the spiritual unity with Jesus Christ that is the purpose and the reality behind the representation.

This excessive faith in ritual fostered further belief that the physical actions of men can supplant the grace of God, and led to practicing baptism of the dead at Corinth by some, which Paul rebuked as being just as wrong as believing there will be no resurrection of the dead, which was believed and taught by the same people, contrary to the gospel that was taught and preached by Paul.

Surely as a Catholic you're not advocating the practice of baptizing the dead. If not, then how is this passage, even misinterpreted as somehow favoring purgatory, in any way in support of any other belief since there is no belief in the practice?

Well, Mormons believe in it. Christians including Catholics don't, unless I've been very remiss in understanding what I've been reading here on the FR religion forum for years. I believe in the resurrection of the dead. I do not believe in the baptism of the dead. I do not believe in purgatory. How about you?

[A.A. Cunningham]

Is it your contention that the good thief made it to Heaven before Christ, despite what Scripture unambiguously teaches?

"Jesus saith to her: Do not touch Me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to My brethren, and say to them: I ascend to My Father and to your Father, to my God and your God." John 20:17

"Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that He might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, In which also coming He preached to those spirits that were in prison: Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water." 1 Peter 3:18-20

"But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord delayeth not His promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance." 2 Peter 3:8-9

"And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

The fact is that despite your claim, you don't know where the good thief is.

[verga]

Peter speaks symbolically of baptism just as Paul contends in I Corinthians, verga. Were the occupants of the ark baptized by virtue of being guided safely through the water? Does Peter speak mechanically of the rite of baptism, as if the act alone has the power of salvation?

I got it so the Bible is lying when it doesn't say what you want it to say.

I have noticed over the years that many of you Protestants really don't believe what the Bible says ie .. this is My Body, This is my Blood etc.... You like to see symbols and metaphors where there are none.

I challenge you to go back and red what the Early Church fathers taught about Baptism, the Eucharist, Purgatory, etc..You find it very enlightening what has been taught from the very beginning of the Church.<>P>P.S. I noticed you didn't cite a chapter or verse for the sinners prayer, I find that odd.

[RobbyS]

I submit that the incident tells us nothing except that “Dismas” saw and believed. He died before Our Lord expired, and therefore was waiting with Moses and the fathers for Jesus to descend to the land of the dead and lead the just into the Kingdom.

[ferv888]

• 1 Peter 4:6 (gospel preached to the dead)

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

[RegulatorCountry]

I'm sorry, I mistook the discussion as dealing with the matter of the good thief on the cross, as to whether he ended up in purgatory or not. He professed with his mouth that he believed Jesus Christ to be the Son of God and was to be counted among the righteous dead for having done so. He saw Jesus Christ in paradise, "Abraham's Bosom" in that yom, on that day.

He was led out of Sheol along with all the righteous dead, by Jesus Christ. He was led to heaven. His faith got him there. He was not baptized.

The so-called sinner's prayer is really more akin to a creed, as I understand it. Creeds are something to which you can relate, I should think, it's a shorthand for a Biblical matter of faith or for church doctrine. I personally don't put that much store in creeds but will agree with the meaning of them to the extent that such creeds are supported by scripture. If they're not supported by scripture, I do not agree.

It's really fairly simple. All the Byzantine layers of smoke, mirrors, rituals and veritable Greek choruses of commentary only serve to complicate matters. Believe and be saved.

[D-fendr]

Then praying for the dead in purgatory serves what purpose?

All our prayers and intercessions are good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, and here we pray for a speedy trip. The destination set, Heaven, so again, it's not a "second chance for Christians."

thanks for your courteous reply...

[RegulatorCountry]

Some of your church fellows would appear to be in disagreement, what with citing I Corinthians 15:29, ie: baptism of the dead, in support of purgatory, D-fender.

[Scotsman will be Free]

Amen!
‘When He had received the drink, Jesus said “It is finished.” With that he bowed His head and gave up His spirit.’ John 19:30.

[D-fendr]

I'm sorry, could you be more specific? Disagreement on what? That those in Purgatory are *not* bound for Heaven? If so, that's incorrect Catholic doctrine. Baptism of the Dead? No, that's definitely not a Catholic practice.

I have not seen 1 Corinthians 15 referenced for Purgatory, but I have seen 1 Corinthians 3.

thanks for your courteous reply...

[RegulatorCountry]

Read the ten or so replies previous to the beginning of our courteous exchange here. I Corinthians 15:29 has been cited in support of purgatory and defended on that basis by more than one individual.

[verga]

Believe and be saved.

the Bible says you need baptism. I will take the literal words over your interpretation