Posted on 12/23/2011 8:28:19 PM PST by bibletruth
Was the thief in Luke 23 heaven (paradise) bound or purgatory bound?
Luke 23:41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
And Jesus said...To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. This is significant, since the inspired Word of God, not of men, calls this man a thief, and it was his own testimony to the other thief on a cross that "we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss". That thief was admitting he had not been misjudged, but had indeed committed crimes worthy of the death penalty. If there was a purgatory, then this man would have gone directly to such a place, because a crime worthy of the death penalty - even by today's standards - would be a certain purgatory destination for such sins of such a one who believed in Jesus Christ, as this man indeed did. Do we see the Lord Jesus Christ Words say - "you shalt go to purgatory for your due reward - nay, on the contrary, we see hear the Lord Jesus Christ Words say - Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Since the Corinthians were very carnal, and if a purgatory did exist, it certainly would be their destination. Yet our Apostle Paul said to even these sinful believers that they can be confident that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
II Corinthians 5:8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
We see that as believers we are confident and willing rather to be absent from the body in order to be present immediately with the Lord, just as the thief on the cross was.
Oh, but you say, that Christ absolved the thief on the cross, that's why the thief did not go to purgatory. Well if that's the case, why doesn't the Pope simply absolve all believers sins so that no one must go to purgatory! The LORD has already absolved all my sins - why cannot the Pope absolve sins so that no one must go to purgatory?
Rather, God's Word teaches us that Christ Jesus "by Himself purged our sins" without any help from man [Hebrews 1:3]; and that from II Corinthians 5:8, we are confident to be present with the Lord. Christ Jesus only spoke about heaven and hell, never purgatory. Christ Jesus never warned anyone about purgatory. He came to save sinners, not condemn them to purgatory to pay with their own sufferings for their own sins. Christ paid for all sins, past, present, and future!
II Peter 1:9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
These clear teachings are in stark contrast with the existence of purgatory.
Oh, but what do we read in Matthew 5:26 … till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing… The context of Matthew 5:25-26 is NOT talking about salvation, but rather the context is about conduct with an adversary:
Matthew 5:25: Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Matthew 5:26: Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. - THIS IS NOT purgatory - wrong context! Christ Jesus never mentions purgatory here - this is a warning on conduct and judgment regarding hell, not purgatory. Any honest commentary can clarify this.
A reckoning Christian would clearly see that Christ Jesus only warns us about Hell, and speaks only about the abode of heaven for believers, so a reckoning Christian would agree with God's Word that the thief was simply forgiven his sins and did indeed go to paradise; and in the same manner today, Christ Jesus has forgiven us all our sins and we indeed to directly to heaven.
Since in Ephesians 1:3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: we now all have (possess) these heavenly blessings, how would a mercifully God send His blessed saints to purgatory to burn with fire and torments? God's clear teachings are in stark contrast with the existence of purgatory!
I’ve always been taught that the Paradise mentioned was a waiting place for all the people of the Old Testament who would eventually enter heaven AFTER Christ.
Thus, the good thief went there — not to heaven, not to Purgatory, to the waiting place.
One of the Gospels talks about the spirits arising from their graves and roaming around Jerusalem only to be seen by the believers. They also were waiting to enter heaven AFTER the Resurrection when Jesus entered heaven.
I know some people may not agree with me, but that’s what I’ve been taught.
Good post. In the end we don’t really know (referring to another poster’s “waiting place”), but I agree with your assessment that purgatory doesn’t seem “real”.
I've long contended that the Catholic "purgatory" is a survival of the Hebrew Sheol. Heaven and Hell overlaid upon this conception don't quite square with what we understand, having both a paradaisical, even almost heavenly level or compartment that was actually referred to as "paradise," on down to the darkest depths of Sheol, outer darkness, a place of punishment.
However, Catholics also believe as do most Christians that the righteous dead were freed from Sheol by Jesus Christ, who led them out during the three days between crucifixion and resurrection. Whether "paradise" ceased to exist at that point or just no longer applies is not addressed at any length, and so most remain somewhat vague upon the whole thing.
So, even though I don't accept purgatory myself, as it's clear enough from scripture that such a place no longer applies to us if it ever did, I do recognize what was being said by Jesus Christ to the thief on the cross. He did see him that day in "paradise." It was Sheol, and He led them out, including the thief.
He had Jesus’s forgiveness—as the Christ said—he made it into Heaven. He realized Christ was innocent—he had done nothing wrong. He got it.
Reading all comments with interest.
I thought we were celebrating the birth of Christ this time of year.
In fact, I am. Not appropriately, mind you, but there are not many admin moderators in real life, and the Christmas fake deer across the street can be arranged in.... interesting positions. Police will be called, photos will be taken....
I'll disclaim all knowledge. Everything will be fine, except for some blood pressure.
Admind mod... only pinged you because I mentioned you (or someone like you) as an aside. I'm pure as driven snow.
/johnny
Merry Christmas.
Two questions come to mind immdeiately:
1. Since the the Greek didn’t have a comma here, how does a person decide where to put it?
2. Would the faithful before Christ made his sacrifice be bound for heaven?
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanual.
Christ came to save sinners from hell, and offer heaven. Some try to distort the truths regarding heaven and hell with un-biblival purgatory. Since Christ has come, we must remind people of the salvation from hell and the glorious grace salvation in heaven - purgatory robs people of that truth.
The faithful before Christ’s sacrifice were placed into the center of the earth known as Sheol and in OT, in the NT it is Paradise. When Christ promised the thief on the cross, He knew He would rise from among dead ones after 3-24-hour days and 3-24-hour nights - He then went down to Paradise to release the saints in Sheol / Paradise and took them all up to heaven, which is where they reside today, awaiting the rapture / catching up of the saints.
We'll work on resurrection and redemption in April. This is December.
/johnny
I want to clarify something here — that Paradise that Christ talked about could be what the Church later defined as Purgatory.
I’m not a theologian, but it occurred to me that I might be mistaken there.
Actually, Purgatory is a waiting place of sorts. People who find themselves there know they are heaven bound, they are just being purified for the reparations they did not do on earth. It’s their actions, not Christ’s.
But they mnust be pure before they enter heaven.
Write on my heart, every word.
But do please start at the beginning.
/johnny
The birth of Christ is for this purpose ... He was born for the purpose to die on the cross in April in order to save sinners from hell.
Are you ashamed of the purpose of His birth for the purpose of the cross? The purpose of the resurrection and redemption was the ONLY reason He was born on this earth. Do not minimize this fact.
Purgatory was not a waiting place - Paradise served this purpose before Christ Jesus came into the world. Then Christ Jesus teaches us about heaven and hell, no more purgatory anymore...it never existed in the Bible
1. Understanding the greek and the context of the greek wording. You can ask the same question about every language in the bible and you can even ask that about inserting the vowels in the Hebrew translation. Context.
2. Of course. The story Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus was real (given every story with proper names is taken as a real event). In this story it describes the afterlife and two sections of it, one side “Abrahams Bosom” and another side with heat and flames separated by an impassable gap. WHen Jesus triumphed over sin and death and then held the keys to hell and death, He took those OT saints waiting in Abraham’s Bosom and brought them to Heaven.
Jesus Christ was NOT born December 25.
Jesus was born earlier, in the fall, during the festival of Sukkoth, “the Feast of Tabernacles.” John 1:14 tells us that the Word became flesh and “dwelt” among us. The Hebrew word for dwell is shakan and means “tabernacle”. By inserting the proper wording, the scripture now reads, “The Word became flesh and Tabernacled among us” (Exodus 29:45).
Christ Jesus was 33½ years old at the time of his death. He began His ministry at age 30 (Luke 3:23) lasting for 3½ years. His baptism by John the Baptist came several months prior to the first Passover of His ministry (John 1:33-34, John 2:13, John 2:23). In John 4:35, Christ Jesus mentions that the harvest was four months away. Therefore, at this time, He is coming up to the second Passover as the harvest happens at about the same time as Passover. John 6:4 mentions another Passover, the third, followed by Tabernacles and the Dedication. The final, fourth, Passover is mentioned in John 11:55. Using this chronological information, it appears that Christ’s ministry lasted around 3½ years. He was crucified at Pesach (John 19:13-15) which occurs in the spring. Dialing back six months puts us into early fall which is when Sukkoth is marked in late September to early October, depending on the lunar cycle.
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