Posted on 12/13/2011 11:51:34 AM PST by Jedediah
Careful, they’ll crank up their wacky wayback machine and anachronistically claim separation of church and state with Ferdinand and Isabella, lol.
Too bad for them that there are historical records in existence that were and are not controlled by the Catholic church.
Besides, who needs that when you can jump right here on FR and see Catholics pining for the return of an inquisition.
More cartoons. One might come to the conclusion that each man’s version of Protestantism is simply a cartoon. How’s that god in the mirror been lately?
And we'll expropriate your land and forbid you from working and stop any worship of God; oh wait, that's what the Protestants did to the Catholics in the 18th and 19th century here in the US. Sorry to intrude.
One might come to the conclusion that each man’s version of Protestantism Catholicism is simply a cartoon. How’s that god in the mirror been lately?
Of course we'll disagree on this Mark, For I see the Reformation as God removing the true believers from the paganism which the leadership within the church had brought in and refused to rid itself of. Big difference between "quitting and splitting".
Had the church done as God required of it then the history may have played out differently. But the reality is the church refused to act on what God clearly stated and thus He acted by raising up those who were willing to do as HE required....unfortunately the leadership continued to resist and so the natural outcome would be the Reformation as it did play out.
Unfortunately to this very day the catholic leadership continues to resist..in fact it often appears to me God has simply allowed sin to run it's course within the catholic church which we see and know the evidences of today.
Personally I would prefer to think more highly of the catholis church as I do believe their are some believers within it. With this I do believe those who truly desire to grow in their relatiosnship with Christ will either leave or become an instrument in God's hands to show others within the catholic church their deep errors.
I do know there are those who see the catholic church as a misssion field and are within the church to do just that among those who believe.
So we will differ on just exactly what the catholic church is about...and I am convinced it serves Rome and it's leadership for power and authority... and they have nothing to do whatsoever with the true worship of Jesus Christ...at best lip service.
Faith in Christ is not faith in the Catholic church and faith in the Catholic church is not faith in Christ.
Catholicism and Christ are not interchangeable terms.
One might. Then again, one might be a graduate of the American public school system. Congratulations; something of a triumph, I'd wager.
Of course we'll disagree on this Mark, For I see the Reformation as God removing the true believers from the paganism which the leadership within the church had brought in and refused to rid itself of. Big difference between "quitting and splitting".
Big guffaws. You are blaming the Reformation on God? You have a greater sense of humour than I had previously believed.
Had the church done as God required of it then the history may have played out differently. But the reality is the church refused to act on what God clearly stated and thus He acted by raising up those who were willing to do as HE required....unfortunately the leadership continued to resist and so the natural outcome would be the Reformation as it did play out.
You are blaming Joel Osteen and Rick Warren on God?
So we will differ on just exactly what the catholic church is about...and I am convinced it serves Rome and it's leadership for power and authority... and they have nothing to do whatsoever with the true worship of Jesus Christ...at best lip service.
Yes, we will disagree. You confuse the Catholic Church with 'Rome' and until the scales drop from your eyes, you will not understand just what the Church of Jesus Christ actually consists of.
Any ‘church’ that doesn’t believe God’s Word is the FINAL authority is from the pit and designed to deceive many.
There is ONLY ONE true Church and Jesus the Christ is the Head of It and HIS WORD ALONE reigns with His members who are referred to as Christians because it is HIM/HIS WORD they are following. They will not follow another ..”But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” John 10:5.
There is only one voice for God’s children - Jesus, The WORD.
There is ONLY ONE true Church and Jesus the Christ is the Head of It and HIS WORD ALONE reigns with His members who are referred to as Christians because it is HIM/HIS WORD they are following. They will not follow another ..”But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” John 10:5.
There is only one voice for God’s children - Jesus, The WORD.
You have posted partial truth. Question: who is the steward?
Try not to twist my words to say what you want them to say Mark. You know I didn't say God was to "blame" for the Reformation which implies it was a bad thing. (You know that sort of communication was in the Garden of Eden as well.) The Reformation began because bad men within the church would not comply with God's will for His church
So let me elaborate further... that because the church leadership (man) refused to obey God and instead allowed and encouraged pagan practices within His church, and indulgences with horrible and grotesques tortures by Bishops if the people didn't comply,... God raised up men to speak out against it's practices, ( Martin Luther's 95 propositions against the doctrine of indulgences comes to mind), and with that these words ring true:
"If the work be of God, who shall stop it?... if it be not, who can forward it? ....Not my will, nor theirs, nor ours; but Thy will, O holy Father, which art in heaven.”
You confuse the Catholic Church with 'Rome'
No I most certainly do not Mark....... And since Jesus said..."My kingdom is not of this world" can the authority of a vicar/pope/magesterium extend beyond those of his superior?"...of course not... but the Roman Catholic Magesterium and the Pope would of course and do say otherwise as follows:
"We declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." ...(Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302).
"....The strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate." ....(Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653).
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." .....(Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
You will not understand just 'what' the Church of Jesus Christ actually consists of.
I do most assuredly understand 'WHO' the church of Jesus Christ truly consists of...and that is all those who have put their trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior..which is not a earthly building or location.
So then yes we will indeed agree to disagree.
Try not to twist my words to say what you want them to say Mark. You know I didn't say God was to "blame" for the Reformation which implies it was a bad thing.
Then are you saying that God was responsible for the Reformation? Come on, let us be plain.
The Reformation began because bad men within the church would not comply with God's will for His church
Yes, and Martin Luther lived out his life as landed baron; Ulrich Zwingli got to play soldier; and Jean Cauvin assumed absolute rule over a city-state. That was God's will? If not, then what is it that you discern as God's will?
The Mormons? The Jehovah's Witnesses? The uncounted and unchartered Pentecostals? The Branch Davidians? The Raelians and whatever Quix believes today? What makes you think that you understand God's will better than, for example Gregory of Nissa? Augustine of Hippo? What makes you right and ALL of the Councils wrong?
You confuse the Catholic Church with 'Rome'
No I most certainly do not Mark....... And since Jesus said..."My kingdom is not of this world" can the authority of a vicar/pope/magesterium extend beyond those of his superior?"...
Yes you do. You routinely confuse the Catholic Church and the Latin branch. The only route that Jesus told us is through Him to salvation. He set up the means - the Church. We know of no other. It is the pride and hubris of men that claim otherwise.
You will not understand just 'what' the Church of Jesus Christ actually consists of.
I do most assuredly understand 'WHO' the church of Jesus Christ truly consists of...and that is all those who have put their trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior..which is not a earthly building or location.
However, that also consists of believing in the institution that He set up and that we have Scriptural proof, not just evidence of it and what it should mean to Christians. The Catholic Church is that institution and not some mallfront sham set up last week as a tax dodge.
Do you mean the Catholic church or the Roman Catholic Church or the Latin Catholic Church, or the many and varied conglomeration which is out there? Which of all these are you referring for there are many? It's time you be specific when you speak of the church Mark.
The body of Christ is the church, believers do not have to align with any institution to follow Christ. It's not a requirement for salvation by any means. All thru the scriptures we see that it's thru believing in Christ Jesus and His "finished" work. Nothing we do nor the church building we attend is going to usurp His rightful place, within the heart of the believer...for they know who they have believed in and are persuaded that Jesus is able to keep that which they have committed to Him..and this being sealed by His Holy Spirit.
Certainly it is a good thing to gather together as Christians do. The disciples and others did just that as well. And we are asked not to forsake gathering together. So the building, be it a denomination or someones basement, to worship God is acceptable. God is not contained by any denomination nor are His hands tied to any one organization claiming such.
Some seemingly need a set of stoic and binding laws and adherence's to those, as well as a litany of other rituals and practices to 'feel' religious or/and have a sense they have passed certain requirements earning their way into Gods favor.... But Jesus said "no man comes to the Father except thru me"..He didn't say thru an organization, in fact He had plenty to say to those who attempted to incorporate laws, rituals, etc. which opposed His words otherwise.
Christ has equipped believers to spread the gospel message thru and of His Holy Spirit operating among men... and that message brings with it Freedom from laws and rituals and practices...."If the son sets you free you are free indeed
You won't know full Truth until God's Word is your Final Authority.
Are you saying that you are currently in possession of the full Truth of God?
Put your analyst on danger money, baby.
How could something that uses a pagan term like “Logos” to describe Jesus Christ possibly be of God? (sarc.)
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