Dying Lutheranism WantsTo Kill Catholic Church

Creative Minority Report ^ | December 9, 2011 | Patrick Archbold

[NYer]

Lutheranism is dead, or at least soon will be and it wants to take the Catholic Church with it.

Herbert W. Chilstrom is former presiding bishop of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Chilstrom has written an open letter to the Bishops of Minnesota asking them to accept gay 'marriage' becuase gays are like blacks or something.

May I share a word with all of you who now lead the Roman Catholic community of faith in Minnesota?

First, I would go to the wall to defend your right to work for the adoption of the so-called marriage protection amendment. Having said that, I must tell you that I believe you are making a significant mistake.

Over my 35 years as an active and retired bishop I have come to know hundreds of gay and lesbian persons. I have yet to meet even one who is opposed to the marriage of one man and one woman. After all, they are the daughters and sons of such unions.

What they cannot understand is why church leaders would oppose their fundamental desire and right to be in partnership with someone they love and respect who happens to be of the same gender and sexual orientation. They don't understand why they should not enjoy all the rights and privileges their straight counterparts take for granted.

More than a half century ago Father Francis Gilligan spoke out for equality for African American citizens of Minnesota. Though many argued on the basis of the Bible that these neighbors were inferior to others, Gilligan fought tirelessly for justice for these brothers and sisters.

In our generation homosexual persons are subject to the same discrimination. Their detractors often use the Bible and tradition as weapons of choice.

What strikes me about this letter is how utterly juvenile it is in its thinking and how insulting it is to the Catholic position.

Chilstrom challenges the Bishops to "Let me put out a challenge to each of you brothers. Invite 15 gay and lesbian persons from your respective areas, one at a time, to spend two hours with you."

In Chilstrom's mind, the problem is that we don't know and therefore don't like gay people. If we just got to know them, then all these problems would go away. How utterly juvenile. We know them, we love them, that is why we can never support this behavior becuase it destroys them body and soul.

It is no wonder that Lutheranism is dying a milquetoast death.

[ReformationFan]

I believe the Church of the Nazarene is a conservative denomination that is based upon the teachings of classical Methodism.

Plus, there are many conservative Protestant denominations you can find a refuge in if you have to:

The Presbyterian Church in America/PCA(my denomination),
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod/LCMS,
Southern Baptist Convention/SBC and many independent Bible churches. Personally speaking as a conservative Presbyterian, I feel far closer to Biblically orthodox Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Bible Church folks, Nazarenes, etc. than I do to liberal Presbyterians.

[ReformationFan]

http://withchrist.org/tenets.htm

Inclusivism rules, so...
If you disagree with us, you’re intolerant and hateful...
God is Whatever or Whoever…
There are many paths to ‘God’…
There is no such thing as Divine revelation, truth is what science or reason says it is at the moment or what works for you...
The Bible is outdated, of limited value, and in most areas simply wrong…unless interpreted to support what we believe...
Science is infallible, not the Bible...
The Creation account is myth; evolution is fact...
No human life is sacred; in or out of the womb...
Mankind is basically good and self-redemption is possible…
I’m OK, you’re O.K…, unless you’re a member of the religious right or a social conservative...
Accountability is harmful to our self-esteem...
All morals and cultural norms are ‘social constructs,’ none is superior to another...
Lust, love, and sentimentality are all one and the same…
Private behavior has no public consequence...
Our set of social good works are the highest virtue...
Our involvement in politics is perfectly ok; but the religious right violates ‘separation of church and state’.
You can’t impose your values on us, but we can legislate and shove ours down your throat...
Public schools are great; they advance OUR enlightened liberal agenda under the guise of religious ‘neutrality’...
We are never guilty of hypocrisy...
Hypocrisy is the only sin, it is unforgivable, and we on the left cannot be guilty of hypocrisy as evidenced by tenets 1 to 19...

[rzman21]

Personally speaking as a conservative Presbyterian, I feel far closer to Biblically orthodox Lutherans,
>>How do you feel about the LCMS’s sacramentalism and beliefs that tinge closer to Catholicism?

[rzman21]

The impact that Luther had on pietism was more of an unintended consequence - and Luther himself really regretted what Melanchthon went on to do in his rejection of anything Roman Catholic, which Luther did NOT support.

What Luther believed was that people should be given the Word of God in their own language so they could process it mentally and truly believe it. Because the Word was available to the people they had the opportunity to either interpret it correctly or totally botch it up. Luther wrote lots of books to try to help people understand the hermeneutical principles, but there were still lots of people who botched it. Melanchthon and others who tended more toward pietism wanted to throw out everything from the past, whereas Luther just wanted the teachings of the Church (and beliefs of the people) to be accountable to the Word of God.

>>I’m not going to knock the positive aspects of Luther’s effort, namely to put the Bible into the vernacular although I contend he did so rather imperfectly in a way that was as much influenced by Nominalism and Erasmian Humanism as anything else.

The same kind of thing can be seen in some churches today who think that anybody with theological training must be all “book knowledge rather than heart knowledge” so they have as pastors/teachers those who have no training in the Biblical languages, hermeneutics, theology, etc.

>>The Eastern Church attracted me because its theological approach harmonizes both. A theologian is one who prays, according to the Byzantines. Otherwise you end up with pagan philosophy. Right belief without right living and right action is the stuff of devils.

Often they have a people that believes with all their heart - but may not have a clue about what the Bible really says. Pietism, like you say. It came about because the people had access to the Bible without having to get it from the learned scholars AND THEY CHOSE TO IGNORE BIBLICAL SCHOLARSHIP like the scholarship, exegesis, etc that Luther offered in his own books.

The ELCA botched it because they denied that the entire Bible is the Word of God.

>>I left the ELCA almost 20 years ago because I was the direction it was heading in, and I also noted that Rome had incorporated many of Luther’s reforms in the wake of Vatican II. (Vernacular liturgies, communion under both kinds, and an increased prominence for the scriptures.)

So what you’re saying about pietism and the ELCA is true. It’s just not what Luther taught. Luther’s role was in allowing the people to see the Bible without having to get it second-hand or third-hand from a theologian.

And that is still a concern for LCMS pastors today. The first year of my marriage my husband was attending seminary. I had been trained as a Lutheran teacher but have also always had the heart of an apologist so I was wanting to sort out in depth all the different angles. He was so afraid I was going to get it wrong. Afraid of me reading my Bible and understanding it wrong. It was a terrible, terrible time for me. That’s when I became suicidal, thinking I would never be able to have the Bible or be alone with my Savior without a “minder” along to save me from myself. We got the Concordia Study Bible for me so I could have cross-references and study notes to look at while I studied.

My husband’s been a pastor for 19 years and now he just wishes he could get more people to read their Bibles at all. Reality at the seminary is so different from reality in the pews.

So anyway, I hear what you’re saying - or at least I think I do. Let me know if I’m misunderstanding. But Luther actually spoke against pietism as he observed it in Melanchthon. The proper interpretation of Scripture is what Luther was passionate about, and that can really only be done with earnest, informed study - which the pietists refused to do.

>>I’m surprised that Lutherans refer to themselves in Luther’s name and not Melancthon’s, considering Melancthon wrote the bulk of the Lutheran confessions.

[rzman21]

I think I must be confused about what you mean by “scholasticism”. When I talk about scholasticism, I mean scholarly exegesis, systematic theology, etc. The mental part of faith. I’ve done enough word studies and exegetical studies in my day to know there is value in that, but I doubt that Luther would be disdainful of that - nor, come to think of it, you, based on what I’ve heard you say so far - so I think we must mean different things when we use the term.

>>The Eastern Church doesn’t have a systematic theology and doesn’t see the need for one.

[ReformationFan]

“>>How do you feel about the LCMS’s sacramentalism and beliefs that tinge closer to Catholicism?”

Funny you should mention that. I have a very good friend who recently joined an LCMS congregation and we’ve discussed this issue from a PCA vs. LCMS perspective. For me, the Lutheran view has always seemed closer to sacramentalism which confuses me because Luther preached sola fide. To be fair, I’d have to study Lutheran doctrine more to give a better formed opinion concerning their view of the sacraments. I’ve attended services with him and with another LCMS friend at his church. In all cases, I’ve abstained from communion though I did go up to the front at one with my arms crossed over my heart and the server prayed for me. I liked that.

“I’m surprised that Lutherans refer to themselves in Luther’s name and not Melancthon’s, considering Melancthon wrote the bulk of the Lutheran confessions.”

PCA theologian R.C. Sproul has said the same thing.

[Cronos]

the sad thing is that in the case of the P’s, the PCUSA is the overwhelming majority of all P’s — 85% or more, right? The PCA, OPC are combined only about 300,000 — the OPC being only 20,000 and having already had 2 splits in its 80 years of existence and heading for a third.

[Cronos]

the ELCA is not Lutheran — the LCMS, WELS should sue them and make them remove the “L” from their name — actually they should remove the “C” as well.

[Secret Agent Man]

Unfortunately about as futile as the Republicans suing McCain to stop putting an (R) behind his name.

[rzman21]

The Lutheran view IS sacramentalism, but Luther believed just like Catholics that the sacraments are God’s works and not man’s.

Luther defined a sacrament as an outward sign of God’s inward grace, so when a child is baptized it’s not the minister doing the act. It is God alone who gives his Holy Spirit.

But he said faith alone is necessary for the sacraments to be effective in the life of the believer, as opposed to St. Augustine’s doctrine of ex opere operato.

[rzman21]

The Lutheran Confessions are so close to Catholicism that Pope Benedict XVI has said they could be interpreted in a Catholic manner.

[LomanBill]

LOL.

This from the Indulgent Eunuch misfit left overs of the Roman Empire’s borrowed state sun-worshiping religion?

Pot meet kettle.

[LomanBill]

"...who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time;"

 

"I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD ETERNAL HOSTILITY TO EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN"

--The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
--Thomas Jefferson, 1786

http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html

 

[GOPJ]

More than a half century ago Father Francis Gilligan spoke out for equality for African American citizens of Minnesota. Though many argued on the basis of the Bible that these neighbors were inferior to others, Gilligan fought tirelessly for justice for these brothers and sisters.

In our generation homosexual persons are subject to the same discrimination. Their detractors often use the Bible and tradition as weapons of choice.

What this man doesn't seem to understand is that just because people are AGAINST something, doesn't make it right.

Once people were against civil rights - and therefore anything people are against is wrong? That's what passes for logic? What an idiot.

For example - a simple substitution:

"In our generation ax murderers are subject to the same discrimination...." Therefore we must accept ax murderers?

[ReformationFan]

I wish the PCUSA would change the P in their organization to an L for Lesbyterian. It would be a more accurate description of what they stand for and leave the name Presbyterian to the PCA, OPC, ARP, RPCNA, etc., since our beliefs our closer to John Knox’s and John Calvin’s than theirs are. I’ve heard in the past that the Presbyterian church is flourishing in Korea and Uganda. They need to send missionaries to North America and Europe.

[Cronos]

Christ did not leave the Jewish community, He expanded the message of deliverance to all men. To leave is to take the cancer with you instead of curing it — case in point, with the PCUSA’s total apostasy we still see the EPC going ahead with pastoresses and there have been votes to allow deaconesses in the PCA. The cancer must be rooted out — STAY and root it out at the moment you see it (as the PCA has done) — to leave is wrong.

[Cronos]

in mho, you should not leave — you are doing God’s work by fighting against it. The wider public perception may be that the UMC is all about gay-marriage, but the few of you are working for a bigger “audience” — God. Fight my friend and may God be with you. I’m Catholic btw, but to me your fight against the perversions is my fight too — the Church has its own problems yes, and I ask for your prayers for us just as we pray for God to help you.

[Cronos]

from what I understand -- they are just looking for the next sexual opportunity. That is not the basis for marriage which is a sacrament, a Holy union with woman, man AND God.

Our desecration of marriage with easy divorces, shacking-up becoming a convention etc. has led to this.

[Antoninus]

What they cannot understand is why church leaders would oppose their fundamental desire and right to be in partnership with someone they love and respect who happens to be of the same gender and sexual orientation.

It's not the love and respect that anyone has a problem with. It's the sodomy.

This is not really difficult. If homosexuals could live together chastely as brothers, no one would raise an eyebrow. But the fact is, they want to be free to engage in an act that the Church has always considered an abomination--not just sinful; not just dirty; not just nasty--an abomination.

[Cronos]

Lutheranism — TRUE Lutheranism’s tenets (unlike the ELCA) are close to orthodoxy — they believe in the Sacrament of marriage, of Confession (yes), of the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist etc.