Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan
My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.
That's correct.
In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."
... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.
Are you confused?
Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?
1. The Historic View.
This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.
1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:
"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."
It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.
2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).
In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:
"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."
The difference couldn't be farther apart.
Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.
Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.
Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.
In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.
My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!
For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.
This thread is in General/Chat.
Do the RF rules apply here as well?
Does the noob know his way around well enough to file an abuse report?
WoW that’s more than impressive...I can envision Jesus Christ assuming His place there after all is said and done....though the Jewish people are setting things in place for re-establishing their temple etc. One day thereafter Jesus Himself will come to rule the nations..so it looks to me as they are setting the stage for His ultimate rule....though unknowingly at this time...the remenant will know.
Very exciting times we live in where we can see what things might look like before they actually come into place. Encouraging too!
I see you’re new here too...welcome to FR....though I don’t agree at all with your assessment. It is interesting to see the debates about it as once they draw to a close your side does come up wanting....too much twisting and diving around the scriptures to make it fit. While those on the other side can simply move along smoothly without all the twisting and diving of scriptures. Just how it plays out each time.
Hmmmmm.......
Do you police all the threads ?Why do you provide succor for abusive bullies who just signed up.
The next agenda might be a Sci-Fi campaign coupled with the occult, to rationalize the appearance of the the angelic domain when prophetic events begin to unfold.
I agree because there is 'a spirit of the current age' that does not lead people to truth but gives them the impression they are right.
'Deception' is an interesting word ...it refers to when the one sheep wanders astray from the fold or from the truth into error. We are living in days he warned of almost 2,000 years ago, a time of spiritual deception.
Jesus is not warning the world, but the Church. “Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.” ....Many, not a few,..... and it becomes obvious they must have a platform inside the church to do this.
A lie is not the opposite of truth but is void of truth, it replaces it by adding to the word or changing its meaning so it becomes harmful to those who eat it.
The idea of the Lord returning to remove His saints from the earth is to 'kingdom reconstructionists' and 'dominionists' a retreating and defeatist attitude. .... While many propose the idea that the Church will be preserved through the tribulation just as Israel was preserved in Egypt through the plagues, I see several flaws in this....
Israel all lived in a separate area in Egypt, Goshen, which was given to only the Israelites.... Revelation tells us that the believers everywhere are to be overcome by the beast, and lose their lives being killed in the tribulation;..... they are not supernaturally protected (except for the 144,000 who we are told will be supernaturally protected)..... One can look at chapters 6-7,11-14,17-18 and see the saints are consistently being killed. There is no safety for the saints IN THE TRIBULATION.
(let Us reason)
I agree fully Gio....but we must remember that deception is already at work within the churches....Jesus warned the church this would come and to "watch out".
Many underestimate the power of deception the enemy is using today...using Christian verbage is at the head of every falsehood being permoted. What they who follow those cesptions fail to see is that because they are already deceived by false teachings they will follow the anti-christ as the great deception is cut loose.
How can they expect they will suddenly change from being deceived in what they adhere to now by following false doctrines and teachings?... Do they imagine they will be given other eyes and ears to hear what they've been warned of for years and years throughout the 'times of the gentiles', which we know does end?
Nice chart!
I know just what you mean...
Has this thread been moved from the smokey back room to the Religion Forum?
>> “Why do you provide succor for abusive bullies who just signed up.” <<
.
It is becoming hard to view the actions of this RM as objective.
He/she appears to share the noob’s bizzare theology.
Yes, indeed marbren...and it's thick and growing thicker throughout the world. Often laying claim to Christ as it goes. However, the deception can only take root in those who do not receive the love of the truth; they want a lie, and God will send them a strong delusion.
2 Thess. 2:10 and 11,... that those who reject the gospel now will not be given a second chance after the Rapture, God will send them a strong delusion that they should not be saved. The people who make the eternal mistake of receiving the mark and worshiping the beast and/or his image will be deceived by accompanying miraculous signs and wonders which THEY THINK takes place from the real Christ: All the miracles we see today have to do with Idolatry. Apparitions,... statues moving eyes ,crying, blood ,milk drank by a statue .....This is all specifically addressed in Rev.13:14 and 2 Thess.2:2 as a warning..... As the evil generation went after Jesus signs when he was here in the flesh it appears it will be the same for that last generation .
(Let us reason) It is more than profound how far this nation has seperated itself from the Lord and the foundational truths stood on. So many anti-christs...claiming they speak for Him...when in fact they are liars and doing so to keep those from Christ who might otherwise come.
What's frightening is to see so many "almost Christian" teachings flooding thru the internet and that even also the churches. We knew this would come but I for one didn't expect it to be so unnoticed or in fact supported. The church is in serious trouble and yet does exactly what Christ said they would do.
The church which will remain will be like Laodicia....they fooled themselves to believing they were also on the side of the Lord yet he spits them out.
We call Judas a betrayer, but that is not how he viewed himself.....it would seem you are similar after reading this thread and your posts.
He thought he would speed up the eventual and probably make some money to boot.... After all following Jesus he should have money and nice things as he rules over the people.
Judas professed to follow Christ. He walked and ate with him. On the fateful night he kisses Jesus in his betrayal selling him for 30 pieces.... That is Antichrist.... Judas still thought he was a disciple when he did this.
Maybe Judas thought that Jesus would work a miracle when the soldiers came for him.... He wanted the Messiah to cast off the Roman yoke through a major display of miracle power and be crowned king,... he wanted the kingdom now.... Judas thought he was helping Jesus obtain what was rightfully His. ...He wasn’t.
After reading this thread it was not hard to discern the one posting the article wanted and still wants a teaching" thread where he himself is the central figure...at the podium if you will.... This became clear very early on.
It's never been about discussion, rather a 'platform' to spew across FR his distortions and falsehoods just as is being done within the churches today. IMO working for the enemy of men's souls.
Their pride and the feeling of power is at the route of these posts and the article...there wasn't any intention of discussion for truth, rather the use of FR for a "platform" to spew this trash.
" Judas was a professing member of the church, and he was respected by the other disciples. He was entrusted with the treasury he went out with them and appears to have cast out demons and heal... Unfortunately he was unsuccessful to do this on himself." (Let US reason)
why humm? Did i post to the wrong poster?
Ya think? If so, one nasty player.
No, I just noticed that you picked up on another noob. One who signed up less than a week before the one who posted this thread.
Read this and tell me what your interpretation of it is:
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
So, when God says clearly and unmistakably that The Lord Himself will descend from Heaven, what exactly do you get from that? What is your personal interpretation of that? Can you post the portion of the verse that states that the angels will catch those in Christ up? Because this passage only speaks of the voice of the archangel. So I really need to know where this Scripture tells us that the angels will come and get Church-age believers and take them back to Heaven.
I'm really interested to see your personal interpretation of that verse and where you see angels coming to get believers in Christ. Can you help me out here?
And then, there is the discrepancy between the fact that In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to heaven, while in Matthew 24, the angels gather those who have become saved during the Tribulation after Christ' s arrival to earth. This is a huge problem for post-tribbers. Hopefully you have an answer from your own personal interpretation.
after they had first cleared the sons of the evil one out of the earth. The ones left behind are the righteous who are then later taken up to meet Jesus in the air.
Can you post the supporting Scriptures for that?
Great job Quix! Thanks!
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