Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan
My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.
That's correct.
In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."
... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.
Are you confused?
Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?
1. The Historic View.
This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.
1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:
"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."
It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.
2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).
In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:
"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."
The difference couldn't be farther apart.
Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.
Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.
Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.
In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.
My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!
For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.
A simple translation from Greek to Latin to English.
A quote from another rapture thread on another site:
“As far as the ‘rapture’ is concerned, I think the interpretations of some people are due to their misunderstanding of the concept of the just being ‘caught up’ when Jesus appears at the Second Coming.
They don’t seem to realize that when He comes back for all to see, it will all be over except the final Judgement that will happen at that point in time. He won’t be calling them up so they can watch it all happen without ever having to suffer anything, at all. That’s not how God works.
The suffering of the righteous is always necessary to help pay for the sins of others that are less righteous. That’s why we have martyrs that are willing to die for their faith. Their heroism makes up in some way for what is lacking in the rest of us.
There’s no place in the history of the Bible where the punishments that were sent by God ever spared His own people from any kind of suffering.
Noah and his immediate family certainly must have suffered by having to bear the humiliation and taunting of those that refused to believe that the flood was coming, as well as the loss of all of their friends and neighbors when it finally came. I doubt that the cries of the people around them didn’t cause them any pain when they heard them pleading for him to let them in the ark.
When Lot and his family were lead away from Sodom, I doubt they were dancing a jig while they listened to the screams of those people that were being destroyed, even while knowing that they were evil, including Lot’s wife that couldn’t resist looking back to see it. You don’t go through that kind of ordeal without being deeply affected by it.
Even the Israelites that were led out of Egypt by Moses, suffered in the desert for 40 years because so many of them lacked faith, even though God was always, visibly, with them. He still punished them, even though He loved them, and had chosen to save them from slavery because of the faith of their fathers.
Anyone that expects to be spared from all suffering during the Tribulation, is not really thinking about how God usually works. They’re being a little naive to believe anyone that tells them that some of them will escape without any suffering. I know it’s a nice thought, but it’s not typical of the way God has done things in the past.
If they think about the fact that God didn’t even spare His Only Son from suffering all that He did, how can they believe that they could be worthy of being spared? It just doesn’t make any theological sense to me. “
And let us not forget Job.
__________________
Nothing in the passage you quote relates to the Rapture. It isn’t a Rapture passage.
The three verses Daniel 9:25 through 9:27 describe the 70 sevens for purposes described in Dan 9:24.
It is a Great Tribulation Passage directly contrasting the Messiah the Prince, with the prince which is to come which is the opposite of the Messiah the Prince.
It is very clear to any student of Scripture for the past 3000 years or so.
The Rapture passages are all NT passages. The Church Age wasn’t even discussed in the OT other than inference of a time where the Messiah would be cut off. Daniel is entirely focused upon the time of the Gentiles, which is partly why Gabriel is sent to let him understand what times have been carved out for Israel and Jerusalem regarding the Gentile interval/dispensation.
Go back and reread Daniel from scratch. It is very informative.
You DID notice that ‘chooses’ was in CAPS??
It appears that we may not share sufficient common vocabulary to have a meaningful discussion even remotely approaching a dialogue.
Your mangling of the construction of that verse is incredibly inept, nonsensical, UNBiblical and generally lacking in a microgram worth of sense.
I cannot force you to see or understand that the 2nd Prince in that verse is the Anti-Christ. Holy Spirit alone can do that. I’ve never observed Him do so over the top of innate abject stubbornness.
You have to completely dismiss the testimony of Polycarp, and his age. He was a toddler when Jerusalem was sacked.
You’re not being logical on this.
El Shaddai, The Great I AM
is the furthest thing possible from flippant.
Flippant is idiotic mangling of the language of those verses.
Deceptions from hell are poor starting points for Biblical understanding of END TIMES prophecies.
It’s really incredible the stuff REPLACEMENTARIANS believe.
Ghastly.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
Have you never read about Lot or Noah?
>> Noah and his immediate family certainly must have suffered by having to bear the humiliation and taunting of those that refused to believe that the flood was coming<<
And your making fun of those who believe the Rapture is coming is what?
>> When Lot and his family were lead away from Sodom, I doubt they were dancing a jig while they listened to the screams of those people that were being destroyed<<
And those who leave in the Rapture watching friends who didn’t believe being left behind?
Only about 25-33% of Scripture is prophecy and about 14% not yet fulfilled.
Of those who study Scripture about 85% concur with the Rapture and premillennial perspective of eschatology.
The arguments regarding particular doctrines developed later in Church History is an argument from silence, which if allowed, must also recognize the doctrine of imminency, which the early Church all concurred would occur without warning. The post-trib position weakly demands an argument from silence on the doctrine of the Rapture, while ignoring the doctrine of imminency, instead pointing to signs for His return.
Instead of taking my word for it, take His Word. Reread Daniel 9:24. It states what the reasons are for the Great Tribulation.
Most students of eschatology recognize Dan 9:24 breaks these reasons into 6 areas, 3 positive, 3 negative, with a relationship between the positive and negative.
Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
1) To Finish Transgression (finish the rebellion of national Israel)
2) To Make and End of Sins (to lock up sins of Israel,..Gentile nations might continue to sin in the millennium but not Israel)
3) To make Reconciliation(make an atonement and national Israel again accepts her Messiah) for Iniquity
4) Bring in Everlasting(Age of) Righteousness (the Millennial Kingdom)
5) Seal Up Vision and Prophecy (the function of Prophecies will be completed with the reign of the Messiah)
6) Anoint the Most Holy. (anointing of the Millennial Temple)
If all of these things have happened, then we are post millennial. If they haven’t, then we aren’t there yet.
Surely nobody is foolish enough to suggest we are living in an age of righteousness, nobody sins in Israel anymore, Israel accepts her Messiah, and the Millennial Temple has been reconstructed?????
Let's think before we type.
I seem to recall an event called the Passover.
So the Jews didn’t suffer before then? As slaves in Egypt? And then in the desert for 40 years? In the holocaust?
Let’s think before we type.
Dan 9:26
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Note after Messiah is cut off, who it is that destroys the city. The ‘people of the Prince’ or the ‘people of the prince that is to come’?
The word for prince is also understood to be a military commander or leader of significant rank. One leader, the Messiah is cut off, while the next prince follows. The flood is a military occupation/route/complete overwhelming/flood.
It is very simple communication.
No, the Jews did not lose their first offspring at the Passover, unlike the Divine Punishment given that people residing in Egypt who did not act in faith to His commands.
NGTIA,...anytime we find ourselves expecting punishment and trevail, we manifest we are perceiving perfection from the perspective of unrighteousness anticipating judgment.
That is the perspective of anybody out of fellowship with God.
Every human being other than Christ Himself has had this perspective.
That’s where this whole Jesus Christ thing becomes so important.
He paid that price. Through faith in Him, we now have the opportunity for forgiveness by nothing more than facing God, confessing our sin to Him through faith in what Christ did on the Cross.
If we don’t keep that simple faith alone in what Christ alone did on the Cross, we don;t have faith, nor forgiveness of sin,...then we still anticipate fiery indignation and more punishment.
Have just a little more faith than no faith whatsoever, and He takes care of the rest.
This has to be one of the most unChristian, uneducated, and foolish statements I have ever read.
1) All sins have been paid for at the Cross. The payment made was His spiritual death.
That’s why we have martyrs that are willing to die for their faith. Their heroism makes up in some way for what is lacking in the rest of us.
Wrong again.
MARTUS
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr”: - martyr, record, witness.
Suffering is a different issue from being a witness.
A witness who endures numerous tests might be veritable. Suffering is frequently promoted by those who dislike a witness testimony in order to dissuade the testimony from being given, but in no way does suffering change the truth of a witness, nor is it required for the witness to be true.
Five doctrinal topics study the issue of suffering.
Punitive Suffering
Law of Volitional Responsibility
Divine Discipline
Suffering for Blessing
Providential Preventative Suffering
Momentum Testing
Evidence Testing
Suffering which is good for nothingness is not just nor righteous but foolishness independent of virtue.
This is what happens when a person clings to a false, un-Biblical doctrine in the face of all proof that their doctrine is not from God, and then attempts to twist and force the Bible to fit their false doctrine.
It's desperation which is born out of not knowing Christ as Savior.
****This is what happens when a person clings to a false, un-Biblical doctrine in the face of all proof that their doctrine is not from God, and then attempts to twist and force the Bible to fit their false doctrine.
It’s desperation which is born out of not knowing Christ as Savior.
****
I agree completely. This is what happens when a made up doctrine from the 1800s becomes the entire theology of a desperate people who do not acknowledge Christ as Savior and Lord of their life.
These same people try mightily to guess the actual date of the end times and add unbiblical arguments to their doctrine.
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