That's just More Vatican Ashteroth-Mary-Goddess cult rubberized history nonsense.
Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow
A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.
Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.
We need to distinguish between the Conservative Lutheran Reformation and that of the Radicals and Reformed.
Lutheranism remained and remains far closer to Catholicism than any other Protestant sect.
If we were debating Lutherans, we’d have a lot more to agree on than to disagree on than with the heirs of the Radical Reformation who we see on this board.
From the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification.
4. Explicating the Common Understanding of Justification
4.1 Human Powerlessness and Sin in Relation to Justification
19.We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
20.When Catholics say that persons “cooperate” in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.
21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God and his saving action. Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace. When they emphasize that a person can only receive (mere passive) justification, they mean thereby to exclude any possibility of contributing to one’s own justification, but do not deny that believers are fully involved personally in their faith, which is effected by God’s Word. [cf. Sources for 4.1].
4.2 Justification as Forgiveness of Sins and Making Righteous
22.We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin’s enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God’s gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say that:
23.When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one’s life renewed. When they stress that God’s grace is forgiving love (”the favor of God”[12]), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian’s life. They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.
24.When Catholics emphasize the renewal of the interior person through the reception of grace imparted as a gift to the believer,[13] they wish to insist that God’s forgiving grace always brings with it a gift of new life, which in the Holy Spirit becomes effective in active love. They do not thereby deny that God’s gift of grace in justification remains independent of human cooperation. [cf. Sources for section 4.2].
4.3 Justification by Faith and through Grace
25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
26.According to Lutheran understanding, God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide). In faith they place their trust wholly in their Creator and Redeemer and thus live in communion with him. God himself effects faith as he brings forth such trust by his creative word. Because God’s act is a new creation, it affects all dimensions of the person and leads to a life in hope and love. In the doctrine of “justification by faith alone,” a distinction but not a separation is made between justification itself and the renewal of one’s way of life that necessarily follows from justification and without which faith does not exist. Thereby the basis is indicated from which the renewal of life proceeds, for it comes forth from the love of God imparted to the person in justification. Justification and renewal are joined in Christ, who is present in faith.
27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].
4.4 The Justified as Sinner
28.We confess together that in baptism the Holy Spirit unites one with Christ, justifies, and truly renews the person. But the justified must all through life constantly look to God’s unconditional justifying grace. They also are continuously exposed to the power of sin still pressing its attacks (cf. Rom 6:12-14) and are not exempt from a lifelong struggle against the contradiction to God within the selfish desires of the old Adam (cf. Gal 5:16; Rom 7:7-10). The justified also must ask God daily for forgiveness as in the Lord’s Prayer (Mt. 6:12; 1 Jn 1:9), are ever again called to conversion and penance, and are ever again granted forgiveness.
29.Lutherans understand this condition of the Christian as a being “at the same time righteous and sinner.” Believers are totally righteous, in that God forgives their sins through Word and Sacrament and grants the righteousness of Christ which they appropriate in faith. In Christ, they are made just before God. Looking at themselves through the law, however, they recognize that they remain also totally sinners. Sin still lives in them (1 Jn 1:8; Rom 7:17,20), for they repeatedly turn to false gods and do not love God with that undivided love which God requires as their Creator (Deut 6:5; Mt 22:36-40 pr.). This contradiction to God is as such truly sin. Nevertheless, the enslaving power of sin is broken on the basis of the merit of Christ. It no longer is a sin that “rules” the Christian for it is itself “ruled” by Christ with whom the justified are bound in faith. In this life, then, Christians can in part lead a just life. Despite sin, the Christian is no longer separated from God, because in the daily return to baptism, the person who has been born anew by baptism and the Holy Spirit has this sin forgiven. Thus this sin no longer brings damnation and eternal death.[15] Thus, when Lutherans say that justified persons are also sinners and that their opposition to God is truly sin, they do not deny that, despite this sin, they are not separated from God and that this sin is a “ruled” sin. In these affirmations, they are in agreement with Roman Catholics, despite the difference in understanding sin in the justified.
30.Catholics hold that the grace of Jesus Christ imparted in baptism takes away all that is sin “in the proper sense” and that is “worthy of damnation” (Rom 8:1).[16] There does, however, remain in the person an inclination (concupiscence) which comes from sin and presses toward sin. Since, according to Catholic conviction, human sins always involve a personal element and since this element is lacking in this inclination, Catholics do not see this inclination as sin in an authentic sense. They do not thereby deny that this inclination does not correspond to God’s original design for humanity and that it is objectively in contradiction to God and remains one’s enemy in lifelong struggle. Grateful for deliverance by Christ, they underscore that this inclination in contradiction to God does not merit the punishment of eternal death[17] and does not separate the justified person from God. But when individuals voluntarily separate themselves from God, it is not enough to return to observing the commandments, for they must receive pardon and peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation through the word of forgiveness imparted to them in virtue of God’s reconciling work in Christ. [See Sources for section 4.4].
4.5 Law and Gospel
31.We confess together that persons are justified by faith in the gospel “apart from works prescribed by the law” (Rom 3:28). Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation. We also confess that God’s commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God’s will which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also.
32.Lutherans state that the distinction and right ordering of law and gospel is essential for the understanding of justification. In its theological use, the law is demand and accusation. Throughout their lives, all persons, Christians also, in that they are sinners, stand under this accusation which uncovers their sin so that, in faith in the gospel, they will turn unreservedly to the mercy of God in Christ, which alone justifies them.
33.Because the law as a way to salvation has been fulfilled and overcome through the gospel, Catholics can say that Christ is not a lawgiver in the manner of Moses. When Catholics emphasize that the righteous are bound to observe God’s commandments, they do not thereby deny that through Jesus Christ God has mercifully promised to his children the grace of eternal life.[18] [See Sources for section 4.5].
4.6 Assurance of Salvation
34.We confess together that the faithful can rely on the mercy and promises of God. In spite of their own weakness and the manifold threats to their faith, on the strength of Christ’s death and resurrection they can build on the effective promise of God’s grace in Word and Sacrament and so be sure of this grace.
35.This was emphasized in a particular way by the Reformers: in the midst of temptation, believers should not look to themselves but look solely to Christ and trust only him. In trust in God’s promise they are assured of their salvation, but are never secure looking at themselves.
36.Catholics can share the concern of the Reformers to ground faith in the objective reality of Christ’s promise, to look away from one’s own experience, and to trust in Christ’s forgiving word alone (cf. Mt 16:19; 18:18). With the Second Vatican Council, Catholics state: to have faith is to entrust oneself totally to God,[19] who liberates us from the darkness of sin and death and awakens us to eternal life.[20] In this sense, one cannot believe in God and at the same time consider the divine promise untrustworthy. No one may doubt God’s mercy and Christ’s merit. Every person, however, may be concerned about his salvation when he looks upon his own weaknesses and shortcomings. Recognizing his own failures, however, the believer may yet be certain that God intends his salvation. [See Sources for section 4.6].
4.7 The Good Works of the Justified
37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.
38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
39.The concept of a preservation of grace and a growth in grace and faith is also held by Lutherans. They do emphasize that righteousness as acceptance by God and sharing in the righteousness of Christ is always complete. At the same time, they state that there can be growth in its effects in Christian living. When they view the good works of Christians as the fruits and signs of justification and not as one’s own “merits”, they nevertheless also understand eternal life in accord with the New Testament as unmerited “reward” in the sense of the fulfillment of God’s promise to the believer. [See Sources for section 4.7].
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
Yeah, rather than reading scripture Catholics read what some guy read into it? I’ve seen more of that deception by the RCC. Trust them if you want but don’t call it scripture.
Please do not respond without addressing my agrument.
It actually doesn’t matter. Error is error. Even if one could follow written documentation from one generation to another of church leadership the errors that have been creeping in since roughly 200AD are contrary to scripture. You can scream from the housetops professing succession but it wouldn’t matter. When men go astray from original scripture it becomes an abomination to God. Israel has a longer continuing succession of genealogy then the RCC will ever hope to have and there was still a falling away and we now see them being forsaken by God until the “time of the Gentiles” ends. The Israelites began pagan practices many different times and were punished by God. Longevity and succession does not make the RCC right.
Ah yes! St John of Damascus! Born nearly 600 years after John wrote Revelation and might I say nearly 600 years after all the Apostles had died. Wasn’t in 413 that the your so called “church” declared Mary to be “mother of God” and starting this whole “queen of heaven” myth to placate the “queen of heaven” worshipers in Ephesus?
I say all that to say this. I couldn’t care less what your St. John of Damascus thought or said. If the death and fictional bodily assumption of Mary had been as important as it is held by the RCC today they would not have neglected to write about it. That “bodily assumption” would have been paramount to the gospel as taught by the Apostles. The lack of even a mention of Mary by any Apostle after Jesus ascended into heaven says volumes. The bodily assumption of Mary is a myth that grew out of years and years of going astray from the pure gospel of Jesus as told by Him and His Apostles.
Continuity before during and after the canon of Holy Scripture.
We can read St. Paul, Justin Martyr and see the same Church same catholic (universal) belief. And follow this without break up today.
If the argument is the Church went wrong, as in the Mormon assertion, then precisely where? St. Paul? The catacombs? Nicea? And where then was the Church, the One Bread, One Faith, One Church for 1600 years?
And what then of Christ’s promise for the continuance of His Church.
Without internal self-contradiction it is impossible to proclaim what has become the multiple faiths of the Reformation is the same as the Church in Scripture or afterward.
Scripture, history or both must be twisted to prop up their view.
****When men go astray from original scripture it becomes an abomination to God. ****
Where does the Bible say that? Not where does God say to obey His word, but where exactly in those words does God say that “when men go astray from original scripture it is an abomination.”
Why do I say, “in those exact words”?
Because when you give your interpretation of a verse or verses, it is just that, “your interpretation”, your opinion of that verse. If there is a particular scripture that says that, post it, otherwise all you have is your own commentary on what you think certain passages mean.
There is either an authority or there isn’t and one cannot claim for oneself authority that is not given in Scripture.
And, Scripture no where gives authority to anyone other than Peter.
*****Israel has a longer continuing succession of genealogy then the RCC will ever hope to have and there was still a falling away and we now see them being forsaken by God until the “time of the Gentiles” ends.*****
The Israel of the OT had only the promise of the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Messiah. We, however, have the promises of the Messiah Himself. The promise that He would be with us always and send the Holy Spirit as guide to all truth which the gates of Hell will overcome.
Catholics do believe however that individuals can fall away. God is faithful to His promise that those who believe and obey will be saved, but men are unfaithful and can easily fall or be led astray. That is why we have the Church and the Sacraments so that we may always abide in Him.
*****The Israelites began pagan practices many different times and were punished by God.*****
Saying that Catholics practice paganism does not make it so, but I suppose like the liberals who say this country is not founded on Christianity, if the untruth is repeated often enough some fools will actually believe it.
Longevity and succession does not make the RCC right.
Well, you are half right. All the heresies seen on this forum have been around since the very beginning.
To admit the antiquity of the Church and the verifiable succession of her clergy all the way to the first Christian community and yet deny that Christ is her founder is delusional.
But, again, you are half right. These two things are merely proof of Christ’s fidelity to His promise and His Church.
*****It actually doesn’t matter. Error is error.*****
There is no error in the doctrines of the Church. That is the opinion of an admittedly fallible person with no more authority to declare what isn’t truth than to declare what is.
****When men go astray from original scripture it becomes an abomination to God. ****
Where does the Bible say that? Not where does God say to obey His word, but where exactly in those words does God say that “when men go astray from original scripture it is an abomination.”
Why do I say, “in those exact words”?
Because when you give your interpretation of a verse or verses, it is just that, “your interpretation”, your opinion of that verse. If there is a particular scripture that says that, post it, otherwise all you have is your own commentary on what you think certain passages mean.
There is either an authority or there isn’t and one cannot claim for oneself authority that is not given in Scripture.
And, Scripture no where gives authority to anyone other than Peter.
*****Israel has a longer continuing succession of genealogy then the RCC will ever hope to have and there was still a falling away and we now see them being forsaken by God until the “time of the Gentiles” ends.*****
The Israel of the OT had only the promise of the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Messiah. We, however, have the promises of the Messiah Himself. The promise that He would be with us always and send the Holy Spirit as guide to all truth which the gates of Hell will overcome.
Catholics do believe however that individuals can fall away. God is faithful to His promise that those who believe and obey will be saved, but men are unfaithful and can easily fall or be led astray. That is why we have the Church and the Sacraments so that we may always abide in Him.
*****The Israelites began pagan practices many different times and were punished by God.*****
Saying that Catholics practice paganism does not make it so, but I suppose like the liberals who say this country is not founded on Christianity, if the untruth is repeated often enough some fools will actually believe it.
Longevity and succession does not make the RCC right.
Well, you are half right. All the heresies seen on this forum have been around since the very beginning.
To admit the antiquity of the Church and the verifiable succession of her clergy all the way to the first Christian community and yet deny that Christ is her founder is delusional.
But, again, you are half right. These two things are merely proof of Christ’s fidelity to His promise and His Church.
*****It actually doesn’t matter. Error is error.*****
There is no error in the doctrines of the Church. That is the opinion of an admittedly fallible person with no more authority to declare what isn’t truth than to declare what is.
Hell will NOT overcome.
It’s my computer’s fault.
It’s FRs fault with all this temporary unavailability.
It’s some goblins fault.
NAH, my bad. Should have proofread better.
Hell will NOT overcome.
It’s my computer’s fault.
It’s FRs fault with all this temporary unavailability.
It’s some goblins fault.
NAH, my bad. Should have proofread better.
Hell will NOT overcome.
It’s my computer’s fault.
It’s FRs fault with all this temporary unavailability.
It’s some goblins fault.
NAH, my bad. Should have proofread better.
The triple post?
Definitely FRs fault.
Sorry:(
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony. Praise the Lord for his faithfulness. Praise his name that souls are being won to him every day and everywhere.
Most definitely, excellent post.
In many places the Reformation degenerated in a fashion similar to the French Revolution. Radicals, anarchists, bent on destruction of the very foundations, not bothering with what they destroy, so long as they rule the ruins.
Even Luther foresaw the devilish chaos that would result when, as he put it, every milkmaid believes the Holy Spirit is whispering in her ear.
To their great credit, there are Reformers who are conservative in the sense of maintaining many of the foundations who do not deny or destroy history or the basics of the Faith from Christ through the Apostles and their successors. The realize that without the Church there would be no Holy Scriptures on which to found sola scriptura and no universal faith preserved by the catholic Church for them to reform.
I’ve been keeping two tabs open: one that posts my reply and the other of the thread. I check after each attempt to see if the reply took and then try again, using the back button and post, if it didn’t.
That seems to be working for me.
Doesn’t improve the quality of my replies, but does help in not duplicating them.
That's just More Vatican Ashteroth-Mary-Goddess cult rubberized history nonsense.
How dreadful! Prayers offered for the consolation of his family, his eternal rest in the arms of our Savior, and just especially for his parents in their grief...
Thank you for telling us, as a reminder that sometimes the cost of following Christ is the ultimate. God bless and keep you, too, bearing such sad news.
with y'all's
obviously low opinion
of Holy Spirit's mission, pattern and abilities.
Obviously, according to y'all's Magicsterical, Christ was cruelly joking when He said that Holy Spirit would lead individuals into all truth.
I assume this low opinion dogma fluttered down on a white hanky from the QUEEN OF HEAVEN Ashteroth-Mary-Goddess caricature leading y'all's group?
/sarc
Prayers for your friend’s son.
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