Posted on 10/31/2011 6:33:10 PM PDT by Colofornian
When Mormons use the term “saviors” to describe other Mormons, it’s not a “figurative” or “spiritual” usage:
“When living persons are baptized for the dead, they literally become saviors to others…” (Part of chapter entitled, “How to Become a Savior on Mount Zion: Duty Lesson 12” p. 223 1974-1975 When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren Study Guide 1974)
In light of an agreement made by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not to baptize Jewish holocaust victims, to comply... ...or not to comply. That has been the Jewish-Mormon issue over the years.
The Canadian Jewish News ran an article, Baptizing deceased Jews against Mormon policy: spokesperson in the Summer of 2010. In that article, a member of the Mormons’ High Council in Santa Monica, Calif. (Mark Paredes), was cited as a representative for the Mormon church on speaking on Mormon-Jewish relations.
Paredes was quoted in that July 2010 article as saying there is “99.99 per cent” compliance today with the 1995 memorandum of understanding that was signed between the Mormons, formally the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Jewish leaders. A few years earlier, it had come to light that some Mormons – Paredes says it was only eight – had submitted the names of tens of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims for what Mormons call “proxy immersions” for the dead.
Paredes, who until recently was the executive director of the Zionist Organization of America’s western region, said, “No one thinks that more than a handful of Mormons, out of nearly 14 million [worldwide] continue to defy the church’s policy [on proxy immersions].”
If the Mormons didn’t think all of their following could obey them, then why offer such an agreement to begin with?
Paredes, the Mormon representative, claimed that Mormons have “never” been permitted to “baptize” the dead beyond their own ancestors? Yet even Lds “presidents” of the church have done that!!! Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff baptized 100 different people from John Wesley to all but 3 U.S. presidents and 56 Declaration of Independence signers in the late 19th century.
“The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George," assured Woodruff. "They called upon us, knowing that we held the keys and power to redeem them. I will here say, before losing, that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, ‘You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized for it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God.’ These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights…I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon brother McCallister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others; I then baptized him for every President of the United States, except three; and when their cause is just, somebody will do the work for them.” (Wilford Woodruff, Sept. 16, 1877, Journal of Discourses, 19:229)
So were these Declaration of Independence signers, past U.S. presidents, John Wesley, Columbus and others converted to Mormonism beyond the grave?
Per Paredes, the Mormon representative, he claimed that the Mormon practicing of baptizing dead spirits by proxy is “highly inaccurate to refer to proxy immersions as ‘posthumous conversions,’ ‘making Mormons of the dead, etc.’” (July 2010, Canadian Jewish News)
Paredes’ take was interesting. Because if the Mormons – whose goal is to convert the dead -- thought they were already saved, we wouldn’t have Mormon leaders talking as if they and the rest of the Mormon church were new saviors of the world, now would we?
Mormons like to frame their temple actions toward the dead – practices such as... ...baptisms, ...ordinations, ...washings and anointings, ...endowments and sealings -- as proxy means of simply giving dead spirits a “choice” in the afterlife.
The problem with this revisionism of Mormon history is this is not the way some earlier Mormon “prophets” framed this temple activity.
For example, Wilford Woodruff, the same Mormon “prophet” who began halting Mormon polygamy, claimed past-tense redemption via such baptisms of the dead, saying “I have had some thousands redeemed here.” How does he know they were “redeemed” if they still had to choose? Did the dead communicate with him?
Here is what he had to say in context:
“You have had power to…redeem your dead. A great many of you have done this, and I hope all of you will continue as long as you have any dead to redeem. Never cease that work while you have the power to enter into the Temple…I have had some thousands redeemed here. I have had baptisms, ordinations, washings and anointings, endowments and sealings for them, the same as if they were standing in the flesh themselves...I held the keys of their salvation…” (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, pp. 191-192)
Woodruff was one truly obsessed with the dead: “There is hardly any principle the Lord has revealed that I have rejoiced more in than in the redemption of our dead…” (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, pp. 192-193)
The string of Mormon “prophets” of John Taylor, Woodruff, Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith certainly heavily inculcated the idea that “saviors” of the dead were plural – and they weren’t talking about Jesus Christ as being “THE” Savior of the dead!
And, unlike the Bible, which places a definitive “THE” before Jesus Christ as THE Savior (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14), Mormon “prophets” have long and consistently preached that the Mormon churches produces “saviors” – plural! (Lds often cite Obadiah 21, which the KJV renders as "saviors"; the NIV makes it clear that these "deliverers" are there to govern the mountains of Esau; not become proxy saviors taking Jesus' role as Savior of the World!)
Lds “prophet” John Taylor: " ...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Lds "prophet" John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163)
Taylor: "We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit” (LDS "prophet" John Taylor, March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)
Lds “prophet” Wilford Woodruff: “…YOU will be recognized as Saviors upon Mount Zion…” (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, p. 189, 2004)
Woodruff: “WE become saviors on Mount Zion as we build temples and receive saving ordinances on behalf of the dead.” (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, p. 187)
Lds “prophet” Joseph Fielding Smith: “... mortals have to be saviors on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (LDS "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
Lds “prophet” Joseph F. Smith: “Teach your children and let yourselves be taught the fact that it is necessary for you to become saviors upon Mount Zion…” (Joseph F. Smith, Teachings of Presidents: Joseph F. Smith, p. 412, 1998)
Joseph F. Smith: “…WE have a certain work to do in order to liberate…they…are unprepared for eternal life: we have to open the door for them, by performing ordinances which they cannot perform for themselves, and which are essential to their release from the ‘prison-house,’… (Joseph F. Smith, Ibid, p. 410)
The Christian counterclaim is that Jesus Christ has already done that, minus any ritual mumbo-jumbo performed in a man-made temple. Jesus said His personal temple – one that would zero in on death – and the only real temple worth anything regarding salvation – was the temple of His body (John 2:19-21). That body was laid on the cross. He liberated us and opened the door; we are free to walk out of the “prison-house” of our sin nature, bondage to this world, bondage to Satan, bondage to a fear of death, etc!
Lds “prophet” Joseph F. Smith emphasized that not only do Lds need to perform “every law and every requirement of the (Mormon) gospel” for themselves, but for the dead as well:
“No man can enter into the Kingdom of God but by the door and through the means that Jesus Christ has offered to the children of men. … Not a soul that has ever lived and died from off the face of this earth shall escape a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. If they receive it and obey it, the ordinances of the gospel will be performed for and in their behalf, by their kindred, or their posterity in some generation of time after them, so that every law and every requirement of the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be carried out, and the promises and requirements fulfilled for the salvation of the living and also for the salvation of the dead.” (Teachings of Presidents: Joseph F. Smith, p. 307, 1998; original source “Latter-day Saints Follow Teachings of the Savior,” Scrap Book of Mormon Literature, 2 vols. 2:561-562).
In other words, Jesus’ proxy blood didn’t fulfill the “requirements” and debt-payments and falling short of fulfilling the law. Mormon proxy sweat labor has to fulfill that. And for how many of the dead of history?
“The work of saving the dead has practically been reserved for the dispensation of the fullness of times, when the Lord shall restore all things. It is, therefore, the duty of the Latter-day Saints to see that it is accomplished. WE cannot do it all at once, but will have the 1,000 years of the millennium to do it in. In that time the work must be done in behalf of the dead of the previous 6,000 years, for all who need it.” (Lds “prophet” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:166)
THX 1138
TN, I have to say it: I think you & Vendome are just gettin' a wee bit testy over the "benevolent" actions performed upon your soul by proxy Mormons.
(I may have to call upon Elsie's sidekick, Mormon Dude, to properly lecture you back into embracing 'The Principles')
Here, the Mormons have "redeemed" you (past tense)
via taking your soul into their temple care
[not sure how it is our so-called 'Gentile' souls are allowed into their temples, but our bodies are not]
And here you are already threatening "apostasy" from the Mormon camp!
Incredible! Incredulous!
Now, I know, I know. Some Lds reading this will object. They'll claim they are ONLY [think Mississippi accent as you read this] givin' us po' Gen-tiles a choyce to accept da Mormon 'gospel' on da udder side...
But to 'hear tell' their Mormon 'prophets' the choosin' & the redeemin' & the convertin's been dun!
"...I hope all of you will continue as long as you have any dead to redeem. Never cease that work while you have the power to enter into the Temple…I HAVE HAD some thousands redeemED here. I HAVE HAD baptisms, ordinations, washings and anointings, endowments and sealings for them, the same as if they were standing in the flesh themselves...I held the keys of their salvation…” (Lds "prophet" Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, pp. 191-192)
Now, if Brother Woodruff's authority was good for the "average Mormon" to deem polygamy off limits in 1890 & beyond...
...Then Brother Woodruff's authority to say he HAS personally REDEEMED THOUSANDS of Gentiles as if he saved them "in the flesh"...
...[and he says he ordained them, washed them, anointed them, endowed them, and sealed them to boot as if they were there 'in the flesh']
...Then who are you TN to "go AWOL" on your bros from the pre-existence?
Repent, sister 'Nana, for the kingdom of the post- existence is at hand!
Sidekick?
More like a Kick in the Side; you mean!
That jerk slips in whenever I am away from the keyboard and raises havoc among these threads!
I'm surprised that Jim's kitty hasn't sprayed the Sulfurous Surprise on him(?) yet!
At least he's (?) not learned the secret of the invisible font!
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