What the Church means by Purgatory

Fallible Blogma ^ | October 21, 2011

[NYer]

Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.

Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).

Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.

What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video

This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.

Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.

The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.

View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.

[Cronos]

It appears your good buddies consider the following about your beliefs:

• Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholic
• Arminianism (Pentecostalists, Baptists, etc.) teaches a satanic gospel
• The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.

Your good buddies' statements shows a lot...

[Cronos]

The problem as I said before is that your little cult self-declares its salvation, that members do not get Judged - and they are the only ones who are resurrected which is a substitute for Judgement. This is not Christian but Brahminical teaching just as bad as double-predestination

Do you have any explanation for God predestining people to hell? Why would one believe that God programs people to do evil and says that those he programmed to do evil will then be pushed into hell forever -- isn't that psychopathic -- why does your believe it?

[Cronos]

All of your posts excerpt the Bible incorrectly over and over again

Why does your little incoherent cult prefer to sing and dance on the edges of its mental oblivion instead of worshipping God?

Why does your group abstain from reading Bibles, when discussing matters; rather it is the pre-saved self-declared folks who post precanned preformatted snippets. Let's face it, your posts take the occasional snippet taken out of context and implied to mean other than it implies.

Why do you follow your cult's perversion of the true Gospel? --> St. Paul refers to your cults as indicators of the fall.

however, no worries -- just like earlier cults, yours is doomed to fail as it is not built on the solid foundation of God's word.

[Cronos]

as I already told you to say that the "commands of Jesus" were given to believers ALONE is Brahminical

look at Matthew 4:17-25

17 7 From that time on, Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
18 8 As he was walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; they were fishermen.
19 He said to them, "Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men."
20 9 At once they left their nets and followed him.
21 He walked along from there and saw two other brothers, James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They were in a boat, with their father Zebedee, mending their nets. He called them,
22 and immediately they left their boat and their father and followed him.
23 10 He went around all of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, 11 proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and curing every disease and illness among the people.
24 12 His fame spread to all of Syria, and they brought to him all who were sick with various diseases and racked with pain, those who were possessed, lunatics, and paralytics, and he cured them.
25 And great crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, 13 Jerusalem, and Judea, and from beyond the Jordan followed him.

Jesus had just started His ministry. The crowds were not believers yet. Or if they were, they sure went away fast when they found out more about Christianity. Now, how does the Sermon wind up?

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.'
24 12 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined."
28 13 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
29 14 for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

How were they described? They were astonished!!! Not converted, not baptized, not made believers, just astonished. Just as the Pharisees and the Sadducees were. Let us go to the Plain.

Luke 6: 12 3 In those days he departed to the mountain to pray, and he spent the night in prayer 4 to God.
13 When day came, he called his disciples to himself, and from them he chose Twelve, 5 whom he also named apostles:
14 Simon, whom he named Peter, 6 and his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew,
15 Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called a Zealot, 7
16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, 8 who became a traitor.
17 9 And he came down with them and stood on a stretch of level ground. A great crowd of his disciples and a large number of the people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon
18 came to hear him and to be healed of their diseases; and even those who were tormented by unclean spirits were cured. 19 Everyone in the crowd sought to touch him because power came forth from him and healed them all.<

People came because He healed them, not because they were baptized (or elect) believers. The Gospel does not say that. But let us turn to the last 2/3 of the chapter of Matthew 22. These give numerous examples of why the Brahminical attitude is as unScriptural as the WCF.

Matthew 22: 15 8 Then the Pharisees 9 went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.
16 They sent their disciples to him, with the Herodians, 10 saying, "Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. And you are not concerned with anyone's opinion, for you do not regard a person's status.
17 11 Tell us, then, what is your opinion: Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?"
18 Knowing their malice, Jesus said, "Why are you testing me, you hypocrites?
19 12 Show me the coin that pays the census tax." Then they handed him the Roman coin.
20 He said to them, "Whose image is this and whose inscription?"
21 They replied, "Caesar's." 13 At that he said to them, "Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God."
22 When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving him they went away.
23 14 On that day Sadducees approached him, saying that there is no resurrection. 15 They put this question to him,
24 saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies 16 without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.' 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother.
26 The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven.
27 Finally the woman died. 28 Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her."
29 17 Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God.
30 At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.
31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you 18 by God,
32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
34 19 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,
35 and one of them [a scholar of the law] 20 tested him by asking,
36 "Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
37 He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 24 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."
41 25 26 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus questioned them,
42 27 saying, "What is your opinion about the Messiah? Whose son is he?" They replied, "David's."
43 He said to them, "How, then, does David, inspired by the Spirit, call him 'lord,' saying:
44 'The Lord said to my lord, "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet"'?
45 28 If David calls him 'lord,' how can he be his son?"
46 No one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.

Be you as stony as a Biblical execution, how can you not read these words of Jesus and repent of your and your good boddys' nonScriptural and unChristian posts?

[Cronos]

No replies, eh bb -- because your cult doesn't have pre-canned answer to answer Christian Catholic beliefs?

All we hear are whines and slurs from your crowd. As I pointed out about sanctification, remember my above statment is a process BY God on us, provided by Christ, but it IS a process as is clearly defined in scripture:

1. It can be spoken of as a past-time event,as Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 6:11: "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."
2. It is also a present, ongoing process, as the author of Hebrews notes: "For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified" (Heb. 10:14).

In 2 Corinthians 7:1 Paul says we should "purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit and strive for perfect holiness out of fear of God." The writer to the Hebrews exhorts us to consider our trials as discipline from our heavenly Father, "in order that we share his holiness" (Heb. 12:10). We’re advised to "strive for that sanctity without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb.12:14).

If sanctification means to make holy, then Christians are progressively sanctified or made holy as they strive, by the grace of God, to attain "that sanctity without which no one will see the Lord." Christians can also fall into sin and impurity--into "unsanctity." This is the point of Paul’s repeated warnings to believers not to return to the sinful lifestyles they left behind (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:16-21; Eph. 5:3-5):

"It is God’s will that you should be holy; that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you" (1 Thess. 4:3-7).

Remember

1. the Justification is provided by Christ alone -- we don't provide it
2. In Romans 3:28 Paul is speaking of initial justification rather than righteousness in the ongoing life of the believer; -->
   1. our works do NOT "earn" our initial justification.
   2. They cannot since the works from FROM the initial justification (as an aside The Council of Trent says as much when it observes that "we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede injustification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification" )
   3. James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). This is our growth in righteousness as children of God
3. when he speaks of the works of the Law, Paul is concerned with Mosaic observances such as circumcision, not acts of Christian obedience;
   1. When Paul contrasts faith with works, it’s clear from the context (Romans 3:1; 4:9-12) he means works of the Mosaic Law--ritual prescriptions such as circumcision given to identify one as a Jew, to convict of sin, and to point to the Redeemer who would remit sin.
   2. This is different from works of Christian obedience which lead to righteousness (Rom. 6:16 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?). With respect to the latter, even faith itself can be spoken of as obedience (Rom. 1:5 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from[a] faith for his name’s sake.; 16:26 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from[a] faith—).
   3. Works of obedience which contribute to our sanctification are as much the result of grace as is our faith. This is why Paul can say, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to work" (Phil. 2:12). As Augustine puts it, "When God rewards our merits, he rewards his own gifts to us."

Hebrews 12:14 gives a clear biblical basis as to why final sanctification is necessary. It says, “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord” (NIV). Now, is this the “holiness” we receive by “faith alone”? If so, why is the writer of Hebrews telling these believers that they must attain to a degree of holiness in order to see the Lord? Forgiveness of sins is one thing; becoming actually holy is quite another.

Purgatory is the final stage of sanctification, the sanctification without which no one will see God (Heb 12:14). “And nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Rev 21:27).

This is explicity indicated in

"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

Jesus himself adds to this when he speaks in Matthew 12:32 of a sin which will neither be forgiven in this age nor the age to come, implying that some sins (venial ones of which we have not repented before death) will be forgiven when we repent the first moment of our afterlife.

St. Paul tells us, “But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life” (Rom 6:22). Sanctification follows the forgiveness of sins. The result of this sanctification (becoming holy) is eternal life. The writer of Hebrews tells us how this sanctification comes about: “For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness” (Heb 12:10).

note the words of Paul -- our sins are forgiven, we are being saved -- the sacrifice of Christ forgave all sins, but we are being saved -- we who are saved are being saved -- in the sanctification process.

Post our death, we who are saved are not 'punished' anymore - the "final sanctification"/"purgatory" is not "punishment", but we who are saved are prepared, by the blood of the lamb, in the last "stage" of the sanctification process for entry into heaven

this is not a place, not a period of time as it is outside this space-time concept of ours. It is the final "stage" of the sanctification process and it is not punishment either.

Unfortunately some like your cults get stuck in words, but the meaning is the same: final sanctification or purgatory, but are not "punishments", it is for those already saved and it is done by the grace of God, the sacrifice of Christ that forgave all sins and sanctifies us by the power of the Holy Spirit through the blood of the lamb

[sayuncledave]

VERY well said, Cronos. Now if the horses would drink, they’d find it the best water they’ve ever (or ever will) have. I’m seriously thinking that serial praying is in order. As in, I think that rather than just periodically praying for these folks, I am going to make it a regular part of my prayer life. You’ve definitely sewn up the loose ends of this thread.

[daniel1212]

RCs are no strangers to different opinions. The infallible magisterium is held to have infallibly defined the actual meaning of only a few verses, and how many times it has spoken (out of potentially hundreds of times) is a matter of interpretation, and theologian interpret those that are, and her doctrinal parameters leave RCs great liberty to interpret Scripture to support her church, even if sources such as the CCC do not, and in which their is disagreement.

[daniel1212]

Amen, although the latter verse is speaking about election, and does not reject works as the manifestation by which saving faith is manifested and saints rewarded for. As God is faithful and true. And far from marginalizing works, while the Reformers (incld Luther) stressed their importance, and today evangs manifest more commitment in this area then their institutionalized counterparts.

[daniel1212]

It is true that leaders teachers and pastors are primary subjects, but all are building the church by making disciples, directly or indirectly, and will be rewarded accordingly. “Wisdom is justified of her children.” (Mt. 11:19)

“Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.” (Acts 8:4)

“Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.” (Acts 11:19)

[Cronos]

thanks. With that I see no point in playing the games these folks want to play. Instead we will focus on what is more important — God and pray.

[CynicalBear]

I understand that but I was specifically trying to show that 1 Cor 3 Paul had been addressing the leadership of the church in order to point out that it meant building the church rather then a personal purgatory.

[CynicalBear]

>> Please point out to me where I said anything contrary to that.<<

In post 459. “Where did Chrst sy their faith would save them? Let's be literal here.”.

It was in response to boatbums post about faith being what saves and not works. In it she said that the people who thought works were what saved them were told “I never knew you”. The intent of your 459 was rather clear to me and I’m sure others as well.

[Iscool]

Of course. When did I say anything to the contrary?

Right here...

Both groups are believers, however, not everyone is fully sanctified and every one -- mature and immature is to be tested by his works after he dies

You claim every person is to be tested by his works...That's not true and that's not what the scriptures said...

Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Every man's WORK shall be made manifest and the fire will test every man's work...

No man will be tested...

It's pretty simple and it works like this:

A man writes two lists of things he done as a Christian...One list for things he's done for the Lord and will receive rewards for...Another list of the things he has done that may even remove rewards from God...

At the Judgment seat of Christ, Jesus will look at the list of bad, or not so good things and burn up the list...That list is no longer part of his history...

The good list was also set to fire but it wouldn't burn...It passed thru the fire...

The man suffers loss because he wasted so much of his time doing things that did not benefit the Lord and he lost out on many rewards... But he is still saved and, as yet by fire since the fire burned up any record of the man that in other situations could have brought condemnation...

It's as simple as that...The man does not get judged...He has been judged already and found to be just...

[smvoice]

It’s just so simple to understand. A person would have to be purposely ignoring the words to miss this.

[metmom]

Not really — your post is sneaky. Why don’t you explain your buddy’s belief in Limited Atonement, Double Predestination and Covenant Theology first?

No. What's sneaky, not to mention disingenuous and intellectually dishonest and a cop out, is to deflect the argument and turn it around on someone to avoid giving the apology that you ought.

bb cannot read anybody's mind. If you want to know what someone thinks on limited atonement and double predestination and covenant theology, ask THEM yourself.

But don't throw that responsibility back on someone in a bid to avoid manning up and apologizing when you've been proved wrong.

[Iscool]

We are saved according to our works and we are purified according to our works,-- if we are saved.

saved, and according to our works do not belong in the same sentence together...

If you are trying to get saved according to your works, you will be judged according to your works and you will fail...You can not possibly have works good enough to survive condemnation...

[Judith Anne]

Both groups are believers, however, not everyone is fully sanctified and every one -- mature and immature is to be tested by his works after he dies

That is not my post. Mad Dog was right.

[Judith Anne]

In it she said that the people who thought works were what saved them were told “I never knew you”.

Can protestants not read scripture? It was the people who did NOTHING who were cast into the outer dwrkmess. and the people who helped the sick, imprisoned, naked and hungry who were surprised that they had done anything for Christ, until He told them, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, ye have done it unto Me>" They were saved. I'm starting to wonder about all yall. Can't you see you've gotten it exactly backward?

[Iscool]

They have only one rule; Catholics, from Pope to pauper, must not interpret Scripture.

There are plenty of rules but that one is toward the top of the list...

That's because you guys can't interpret scripture...Scripture is spiritually discerned...You do a fine job of twisting and wresting the scripture to your own destruction tho...

The irony is that every affirmation of Sola Scriptura, and every "show me in Scripture" demand to attempt to refute Catholicism is an appeal to the authority of the Catholic episcopacy that established the Canon and the Magisterium that interpreted the Scripture for the establishment of Christian orthodoxy. They would have us believe that the Church has an on / off switch that only a Protestant knows when and how to activate and then shriek and insult when we can't take them seriously.

So where does the authority come from to establish your Catholic episcopacy and the Canon of the scriptures and you magisterium???

[Iscool]

Anyone weho had actually READ thr post would have seen that the 700,000 hits were for “paragolic interpretation”

I could only find two for paragolic interpretation and they both said don't believe anything Judith Anne says...