Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
zkindly provide me with a link to the rules of YOPIOS "parabolic [sic] interpretation, because I've never heard of them. There were, however, 730,000 sites tjat came up. When I googled "Rules for Parablw inrwepretation" Google came up with 2,3000,000 results, So, I am forced to conclude that nearly each one of the non-Catholics has his/her own rules, and frankly, none of them has any authority either bliblically or personally to me. It seems to me that if you sincetely wanted an honest discussion, you'd show me the rules you demand I adhere to, especially the MAIN rule, The other question raised by your post is this: Where do you see that Christ contradicted anything he said by that parable?
I am happy to see you included yourself in that reproach. Now, if only, you take it to heart.
So, how long did it take you to read all 2,300,000 to verify that they indeed did represent 2,300,000 DIFFERENT opinions?
And how were you able to keep them all straight and verify that there were no dupes?
God bless you for your kind and generous spirit.
Amen! Exactly why. God knows us better than we think he does. Not one person in Heaven will have ANY reason to glory other than in the cross of Christ.
Hmmm, who would that be? The non-Catholics who virtually always post Scripture and appeal to that as their final authority in all things spiritual?
Or the Catholics who virtually always post from the Church fathers and the CCC and appeal to *tradition* (key in Fiddler on the Roof music) and the magisterium for their final authority?
“unable to justify his positions from the scripture”?
B.
Definitely B.
Hmmmm...I posted three passages of wcripture, and then was told that, although I let the scripture stand on its own and did not offer any meaning, I had not followed the correct rules of “parabolic interpretation”
That leads me to conclude that no matter how clear the meaning Christ;s words were, it didn’t fit the scriptural rules of the YOPIOS crowd. How can they be trusted?
From what I saw you posted one verse then let that verse stand on it’s own with only the one interpretation by the RCC. No other scripture to support that meaning. That’s a huge problem with the RCC. Others show other scripture that refutes the RCC meaning of that scripture and you deny that scripture refutes the RCC interpretation. If a belief about a portion of scripture is to be considered correct it must be supported by other scripture. Typically the rule is at least three other sources within scripture to support the meaning.
That was an excellent post! All this time, the Catholic Church used this verse to prove Purgatory even though the word does not exist anywhere in Scripture, but all along the meaning was clearly NOT speaking of this "place of cleansing" that they insist exists. The fire burns up the wood, hay and stubble and the person is NOT rewarded for what gets burned up, only what remains - the gold, silver, precious gems. These works being tested "by fire" are NOT sins - venial or otherwise - because He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. (Psalm 103:10). And also Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (II Tim. 1:9)
What post of mine are you referring to?
But, if as you say, Purgatory is a necessary and GOOD thing - joyful was how it was actually portrayed - then what purpose would there be in accelerating the process? Why would, how could, someone circumvent all that needs to happen in this place of cleansing? They "know" they're Heaven bound, right? Why should prayers, masses, alms and good works be given to expedite this process? It has nothing to do with loving our dead neighbors.
Posts 449, 450, and 451 are the three passages of scripture I posted.
Well you didn’t disappoint.
So, out of the 730,000 Google sites for parabolic interpretation, and the 7,300,000 for parable interpretation, you are unable to tell me the one that has the rules you go by?
You can’t tell me the rules, but you can tell me I’m doing it wrong?
It's pretty prevalent in the OT also.
If all one can find is one out of context verse to support something, that's not enough. THAT is twisting Scripture.
Matthew 18:15-17 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 1 This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them— 3since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.
1 Timothy 5:19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Post 521...zkindly provide me with a link to the rules of YOPIOS "parabolic [sic] interpretation, because I've never heard of them. There were, however, 730,000 sites tjat came up. When I googled "Rules for Parablw inrwepretation" Google came up with 2,3000,000 results, So, I am forced to conclude that nearly each one of the non-Catholics has his/her own rules, and frankly, none of them has any authority either bliblically or personally to me.
Since when did 2,300,000 mysteriously become 7,300,000????
OK, now I'm suspicious of the first number as well.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
It’s the faith that saves but the works that proceed from that faith and are a result of the indwelling of the Spirit of God. He was basically saying the works they did proved they had faith.
None of us would say that a person could say they have faith, sit in their house and do nothing and that would be sufficient. What Jesus is saying that if they have faith they would have also done those things. The Matthew 25 passage that you used in 449 is pointing out the same thing.
We can show that by other scripture.
Lets look at what Paul says. It’s the faith that saves.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
But works follow faith or prove faith.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So you were using one portion of scripture trying to prove that works saves but if we take all of scripture together we find that it’s faith that saves but works prove the faith is real.
Excellent example.
They have only one rule; Catholics, from Pope to pauper, must not interpret Scripture.
The irony is that every affirmation of Sola Scriptura, and every "show me in Scripture" demand to attempt to refute Catholicism is an appeal to the authority of the Catholic episcopacy that established the Canon and the Magisterium that interpreted the Scripture for the establishment of Christian orthodoxy. They would have us believe that the Church has an on / off switch that only a Protestant knows when and how to activate and then shriek and insult when we can't take them seriously.
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