Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
I don't know why it is so hard to accept that some people do things in order to say, "I love you" to Jesus our Savior. I cannot imagine trying to impress God, nor any need to appease Him, but I can identify with those who want to say "Thank You, I love You" for all His gifts by offering time and talent.
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren. - I Corinthians 6:1-8
Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matt 5:7
So who thinks that happens, that God has to forgive us without repentance?
Unless you are referring to events and conditions with no human cause or contingency such as natural disasters, there is no way to separate people from the "matters" they cause, facilitate or support. I recall you getting fairly judgmental and distraught over the "matter" of the Inquisitions not too long ago based upon faulty data from an historian named Rummel.
If I thought that you were honestly desiring to understand this teaching of Jesus, I would explain it to you. But I am aware that it has been done on this very forum numerous times yet the same twisting gets done at every opportunity. Just as a reminder, in hopes it will shake loose those previous explanations, let me just say the following:
1. Jesus was speaking about the Great White Throne Judgment.
2. This is the time at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ on the earth after the end of the tribulation.
3. Those being judged will be the ones who were either born during the millennium or all those who died in unbelief held in Hades (the temporary holding place before the final Hell is created).
4. All who previously died in belief or who were caught up to be with Christ at the Rapture have already been judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ. We will not be judged to determine Heaven of Hell, because Jesus bore our judgment and through his sacrifice, we have atonement for our sins. We will not be judged for sin, because he has removed them from us as far as the east is from the west. We receive rewards or loss of rewards based upon how we have allowed the grace of God to work through our lives.
5. At the final judgment, all the unbelievers face the judge of all and they are judged out of the Book of Life, those whose names have been blotted out are cast into the lake of fire. The gathering of the "sheep and goats" is speaking of those who come out of the millennium. What is important to note here is that they already are either sheep or goats. This time of judgment doesn't turn them into one or the other. The sheep are the believers the goats the unbelievers.
6. Notice also, that the ones judged question Jesus about, "When did we see you...?" They were not doing good works such as unto the "least of these", in order to be among the sheep. They did them BECAUSE they were sheep. Ditto for the goats.
So, whenever we read teachings such as these that seem to contradict other passages, we should remember to look at the context such as to whom he is speaking, where, when, what. Jesus clearly said those who believe on him HAVE eternal life. Why would he turn around and contradict his own words? Answer - he doesn't.
Because we do not stop to love our neighbor after they are dead.
We want to be in heaven because we love Our Lord. Assurance of salvation would be like telling a newlywed: "Now that you are married, you don't have to love your wife, -- she is not going anywhere". Beside the point.
I got you the first time. You are not reading the passage, you are making up your own theories.
It is to lead people to salvation, but I do not dispute that the leaders will go to purgatory based in part on the weaknesses of their tending the flock. Wha tthe scripture says is that every "man's work" will be tested after death, not merely the work of the pastors.
Indeed. Catholics will be tested and may end up not only in heaven via the purgatory, but in hell as well as anyone else, and in fact sooner than anyoen else because to us the Great Truth is given and of us much is required.
Of course. When did I say anything to the contrary?
We are saved according to our works and we are purified according to our works,-- if we are saved.
What do YOU think is the spiritual truth that Jesus is teaching with this parable? Shouldn't we remember to keep in mind the main rule of parabolic interpretation -- a parable has one central truth. All the details are not to be made to mean something. Knowing Jesus' OWN words that he came into the world to save sinners from their sins and that believing in him is how we accept his sacrifice for us - much in the same way the Old Testament saints believed and trusted in the Day of Atonement sacrifice to be an expiation for their sins that looked forward to the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. So, knowing Jesus' teachings how can we then turn around and presume he would contradict his own words by teaching opposite of what he said?
The rule of interpretation that works well is to look at the who, where, when and what of the context of the teaching. All the parables Jesus gave had a central meaning but it was often hidden from those who would not believe him.
Though I grieve for those who I know and those I never will know who have refused to trust in Christ, denied the gift of God and shunned the many opportunities God gave them TO know, I also know that God loves them far more than I could and that it is his will that ALL come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth. It boils down to each person's responsibility to move towards God, I can't make them, and God won't. I think those tears that he says he will wipe away from our eyes and there will be no more crying for the former things are passed away also contain those we will shed for all the lost. All things will become new and we will remember the past no more.
Every Catholic deacon, priest and bishop, including the pope, goes to confession because all are sinners. It seems that Protestants expect more from Catholic clergy than God does. I suppose we should be flattered.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
The question is, where does the Scripture teach purgatiory as a place of final purification of a saved believer? I gave the answer and you agreed "in essence". Like in any question, multiple interpretations of an allegorical passage exist; that does not change the answer.
You originally did not state the final part, and the question is where does 1Cor 3 teach a place where the soul already saved by Christ's grace alone goes upon death to undergo purification by burning off their inferior works so that it can it enter heaven, which the CCC (1030) says is in order to "achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." However, all you can use 1Cor. 3 for is to support a time when works will be tried by fire to see what sort they are, burning up the flammable ones, but the fire is not purging them so they can enter Heaven, as it is not works being burned up that gets one the reward. It is those whose works abide who get a reward (indicated to a crown of rejoicing: 1Thess,. 2:19; 2Cor., 1:14; Phil. 2:14-16), and those whose works are burned shall be saved despite this. If this was teaching the reward was Heaven then those whose fruit did not remain would be the subject of reward. Instead this is speaking about reward for service, for those who are already in Heaven.
>that of converts <
The text speaks nothign of "converts"; it says "every man's work"
It does not say it is things of the soul being purified, but what it best “speaks” of in context and by typology is converts. The subject is the condition and the building of the church, which Paul and Apollos are building, and believers are the building, the increase which God gave Paul (the planter) and Apollos (the waterer). (1Cor. 3:1-7) But while it is God who gave the increase, or crop, the workers who sowed and watered (which are one though they may be many), will receive a reward according to their own labor. (1Cor. 3:8,9) The Corinthians in particular were the work of Paul “as a wise masterbuilder” of the church, whose foundation was a person (v. 10) and which itself is built upon persons (Eph. 2:20) and a reward is given if what man builds upon that foundation endures the fire (and again, losing such does not mean a loss of salvation). And that Paul calls them “my work in the Lord” and who would be his rejoicing in the day of the Lord, (1Cor. 1:14; 9:1) and that believers are referred to as stones, “built up a spiritual house.” (1Pt. 2:5) all works to define “any man's work” as being converts.
>not one's own character defects which gains him entrance into glory, but the fruit of such<
This is not a distinction that means anything, let alone invalidated the Catholic teaching which generally and biblically holds that we are tested by our works.
Believers are judged according to works, as these manifest both the heart and what manner of faith . But if was character defects that were lost in order to gain entrance to Heaven, that being the Reward, then those whose works were consumed would receive the reward, rather than being saved even though those they built the church with failed.
>2nd coming, not commencing at death<
This reading is possible, but not the only possible. The passage simply says that the man is tested according to his works and that the Day of the Lord shall make the results of the test manifest. It does not say that the testing itself occurs at the second coming.
The point is what the judgment is for, the reward being entrance into Heaven or crowns to greater glorify God with, and the basis for which. What is clear is that the day of the Lord was the time of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ with His own, and by the gathering together of those on earth unto him,” (2Thes. 2:1; 3:13) and of judgment on the world. (2Pt. 3:10,12) And which would come quickly when it did, “as a thief in the night,” (1Thes. 5:2) and was the time of the Lord giving to every man his reward according as his work shall be. (Rv. 22:12) And as said, if He came in the first century or now, then all the believers would meet the Lord in the air, along with all other believers, and rather than going to purgatory, they would henceforth be with the Lord, and receive reward for their manner of work as per 1Cor. 3. To God be the glory.
Since that post was directed to me from Cronos and he wrongly accused me of leaving out part of your post in a "sneaky" fashion, I hope you read my response to him and that you will now apologize for including me as a "dishonest and insincere" person. If either of you to fail to correct your false accusations, I can only presume the dishonest and insincere label is all yours.
It is fine to change topic and chat around, but not as a debate tactic. Typically, a professional Protestant, unable to justify his positions from the scripture, will switch the conversatin to something else in order to appear holding his ground. These tricks should be detected and thwarted.
Annalex, unless you have mistaken my post for that of someone else, this is plain arrogance. My response to yours was nether pointless or impertinent. You disallowed the authority of the comments of the NAB and thus impugned the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, inferring the RC Bishops who granted the stamps were in league with the enemy, and invoked the CCC as authoritative, and thus i first addressed the issue of authority, whether the catechism could itself contain errors, and how sure was it, which is pertinent in defining 1Cor. 3 as supporting purgatory.
I next addressed the manner in which the CCC invoked 1Cor. 3, in direct response to your invocation of it. The rest of my post was also direct responses to yours, including your ad lib in damning Protestants.
And all you posted in response was to reduce Purgatory to “purification preceding the entry into Heaven,” for some, (“That is all the Purgatory is”), while as i have argued, that it is only one aspect needed to make 1Cor. 3 refer to being a purification commencing at death in order to enter heaven.
And as for who has evidenced they are “unable to justify his positions from the scripture” and using damage control tactics, i will gladly let the reader be the judge of that. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
You will include yourself among those you criticize, right? I've been noticing that whenever Alamo-girl makes comments - and she sparingly does, BTW - almost immediately you answer back in, shall we say, less than a Christian manner. I noticed in the list of "fruits of the Spirit" vindictiveness is not included among them. I think we should all try to follow her example more often and leave the insults, ridicule, profanity, maliciousness and inflammatory language and comments off of this Religion Forum. We would all be better for it.
Rather a stark difference on who backs up with scripture isn’t there. It’s obvious that the Catholics truly do put the RCC above scripture.
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