Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: annalex; CynicalBear
>“All” in essence, sure, but its the developed details that have been the issue<

The question is, where does the Scripture teach purgatiory as a place of final purification of a saved believer? I gave the answer and you agreed "in essence". Like in any question, multiple interpretations of an allegorical passage exist; that does not change the answer.

You originally did not state the final part, and the question is where does 1Cor 3 teach a place where the soul already saved by Christ's grace alone goes upon death to undergo purification by burning off their inferior works so that it can it enter heaven, which the CCC (1030) says is in order to "achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." However, all you can use 1Cor. 3 for is to support a time when works will be tried by fire to see what sort they are, burning up the flammable ones, but the fire is not purging them so they can enter Heaven, as it is not works being burned up that gets one the reward. It is those whose works abide who get a reward (indicated to a crown of rejoicing: 1Thess,. 2:19; 2Cor., 1:14; Phil. 2:14-16), and those whose works are burned shall be saved despite this. If this was teaching the reward was Heaven then those whose fruit did not remain would be the subject of reward. Instead this is speaking about reward for service, for those who are already in Heaven.

>that of converts <

The text speaks nothign of "converts"; it says "every man's work"

It does not say it is things of the soul being purified, but what it best “speaks” of in context and by typology is converts. The subject is the condition and the building of the church, which Paul and Apollos are building, and believers are the building, the increase which God gave Paul (the planter) and Apollos (the waterer). (1Cor. 3:1-7) But while it is God who gave the increase, or crop, the workers who sowed and watered (which are one though they may be many), will receive a reward according to their own labor. (1Cor. 3:8,9) The Corinthians in particular were the work of Paul “as a wise masterbuilder” of the church, whose foundation was a person (v. 10) and which itself is built upon persons (Eph. 2:20) and a reward is given if what man builds upon that foundation endures the fire (and again, losing such does not mean a loss of salvation). And that Paul calls them “my work in the Lord” and who would be his rejoicing in the day of the Lord, (1Cor. 1:14; 9:1) and that believers are referred to as stones, “built up a spiritual house.” (1Pt. 2:5) all works to define “any man's work” as being converts.

>not one's own character defects which gains him entrance into glory, but the fruit of such<

This is not a distinction that means anything, let alone invalidated the Catholic teaching which generally and biblically holds that we are tested by our works.

Believers are judged according to works, as these manifest both the heart and what manner of faith . But if was character defects that were lost in order to gain entrance to Heaven, that being the Reward, then those whose works were consumed would receive the reward, rather than being saved even though those they built the church with failed.

>2nd coming, not commencing at death<

This reading is possible, but not the only possible. The passage simply says that the man is tested according to his works and that the Day of the Lord shall make the results of the test manifest. It does not say that the testing itself occurs at the second coming.

The point is what the judgment is for, the reward being entrance into Heaven or crowns to greater glorify God with, and the basis for which. What is clear is that the day of the Lord was the time of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ with His own, and by the gathering together of those on earth unto him,” (2Thes. 2:1; 3:13) and of judgment on the world. (2Pt. 3:10,12) And which would come quickly when it did, “as a thief in the night,” (1Thes. 5:2) and was the time of the Lord giving to every man his reward according as his work shall be. (Rv. 22:12) And as said, if He came in the first century or now, then all the believers would meet the Lord in the air, along with all other believers, and rather than going to purgatory, they would henceforth be with the Lord, and receive reward for their manner of work as per 1Cor. 3. To God be the glory.

516 posted on 10/26/2011 6:50:43 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 458 | View Replies ]


To: daniel1212
However, all you can use 1Cor. 3 for is to support a time when works will be tried by fire to see what sort they are, burning up the flammable ones, but the fire is not purging them so they can enter Heaven, as it is not works being burned up that gets one the reward. It is those whose works abide who get a reward (indicated to a crown of rejoicing: 1Thess,. 2:19; 2Cor., 1:14; Phil. 2:14-16), and those whose works are burned shall be saved despite this. If this was teaching the reward was Heaven then those whose fruit did not remain would be the subject of reward. Instead this is speaking about reward for service, for those who are already in Heaven.

That was an excellent post! All this time, the Catholic Church used this verse to prove Purgatory even though the word does not exist anywhere in Scripture, but all along the meaning was clearly NOT speaking of this "place of cleansing" that they insist exists. The fire burns up the wood, hay and stubble and the person is NOT rewarded for what gets burned up, only what remains - the gold, silver, precious gems. These works being tested "by fire" are NOT sins - venial or otherwise - because He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. (Psalm 103:10). And also Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (II Tim. 1:9)

529 posted on 10/26/2011 8:12:51 PM PDT by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 516 | View Replies ]

To: daniel1212; CynicalBear
but the fire is not purging them so they can enter Heaven

The purifying fire is a necessity for those whose works contain stubble. Read the scripture: "he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." The implication is clear that the fire enables his entry into heaven. However, it is true that both kinds enter heaven eventually.

Instead this is speaking about reward for service, for those who are already in Heaven.

No because the entrance into heaven "he is saved" does not occure till he has gone through the purifying fire "saved as if by fire".

it best “speaks” of in context and by typology is converts

That may be one example of "man's work", but the passage is written intentionally in the broadest of terms: "every man's work", with "every" repeated four times and "any" also four times.

if was character defects that were lost in order to gain entrance to Heaven, that being the Reward, then those whose works were consumed would receive the reward, rather than being saved even though those they built the church with failed.

Sorry, I cannot parse the meaning of this.

The point is what the judgment is for, the reward being entrance into Heaven or crowns to greater glorify God with

It is clear from verses 14 and 15 that both kinds enter heaven (the damned ones are not in focus at all, as the presumtion is that the works of either kind are done on the solid foundation of faith, v.12), but one survives the fire unscathed and with a reward and the other loses the accumulated imperfections and sees no particular reward.

694 posted on 10/27/2011 7:01:44 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 516 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson